Most disturbing phone call I've gotten in a long time

[DevonDiver]

Instructing is not rocket science, but between that and dvemastering there is a divide, and Im willing to recognize that

There can be a fine line between a good DM and an instructor. The instructor course doesn't really do anything to improve your dive skills - it is all about instructional technique, control and safety management. The DM courses doesn't cover any of that.... but that's not to say that a DM wouldn't have those transferable skills from other areas of their life. However, good IDC course should offer a lot more development to any DM.

In reference to the DMs mentioned in this report.... I'd hazard a guess that their flagrant violation of industry standards would strongly illustrate that they were not good DMs.... and not prepared for the responsibility of instructional situations.

I've sacked a few 'cowboy' DMs in my time...almost always because their egos exceeded their capabilities and led them to consistently make poor decisions on safety.

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

As an instructor, I have to put my name on a cert card. By doing that, I am swearing that the diver is trained.
To me that means: He/she nows the required dive theory about oceanography, history of diving, physics, physiology, equipment, and dive planning, and can understand and explain all content. They can demonstrate all skills, have good buoyancy, and have excellent and proven problem solving skills. They are aware and can navigate. They are trusted to buddy with my son or daughter.

People who are scamming the system, teaching when they have no right, and absolutely defrauding and endangering these people who trust them, are definitely my business. If they come to me for their check dives, I have no problem saying absolutely not, getting the names and contact numbers of their, "teachers," and then going after those people. They should be reprted to teh whoever's pool is being used. That is causing a massive liability issue for the pool owners, the school system, and the county. They should be reported and a complaint filed with whatever agency they claim to represent, and I would be the first to explain indepthly, to the people who came to me, how bad this really is.

Jim, you are fighting a frustrating, hard fight. I have done it here and it is a sorry thing to have to put up with. But, if you don't follow your conscience, you would never be able to live with it, when a death occurs if you didn't step up. Keep it up and hang in there.

 

[flots am]

Flots sounds like a champion of apathy. Just walk on by fella...nothing to see here....why should I get involved...

I've been hearing flushing noises and swirling water for ages and just don't see why people are surprised to see the poop go down the drain. What's suddenly so different?

• Bad training? That's been around forever.
• Short classes that don't cover what's required? Been around for at least the past five years. Probably longer.
• Instructors violating standards? Happens all the time.

Show me something new.

flots.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The question you have to ask yourself, flots am, is why those things "happen all the time" ...

The answer, to my concern, is because scuba training is a self-regulated industry. We don't answer to anybody's rules or laws except those of the agencies we represent ... and it's sometimes in their best (financial) interest to look the other way. Or more often they don't need to look the other way, because the "it's not my problem" attitude is prevalent in the industry, and so violations don't even get reported. In other words, these violations happen all the time because they're allowed to happen.

But if we're going to regulate ourselves, we also need to police ourselves. Students really aren't in a position to do that ... first off because they almost always lack adequate knowledge to know when they're being put in an unsafe situation, and secondly because the student-instructor relationship is ... by definition ... a trust relationship.

So it does become the responsibility of other scuba professionals to hold their colleagues to a high enough standard to not endanger their students ... we either regulate ourselves or the government will eventually step in and do the job for us.

I know which of those two options I would prefer ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[flots am]

The question you have to ask yourself, flots am, is why those things "happen all the time" ...

Greed comes to mind.

The answer, to my concern, is because scuba training is a self-regulated industry. We don't answer to anybody's rules or laws except those of the agencies we represent ... and it's sometimes in their best (financial) interest to look the other way. Or more often they don't need to look the other way, because the "it's not my problem" attitude is prevalent in the industry, and so violations don't even get reported. In other words, these violations happen all the time because they're allowed to happen.

They're generally not reported because nothing happens when they are reported. When was the last time you saw anybody lose their instructor certification for any standards violation that didn't involve gross negligence and a death?

But if we're going to regulate ourselves, we also need to police ourselves. Students really aren't in a position to do that ... first off because they almost always lack adequate knowledge to know when they're being put in an unsafe situation, and secondly because the student-instructor relationship is ... by definition ... a trust relationship.

So it does become the responsibility of other scuba professionals to hold their colleagues to a high enough standard to not endanger their students ... we either regulate ourselves or the government will eventually step in and do the job for us.

I know which of those two options I would prefer ...

Self-regulation is a nice concept, but you know as well as I do that an "Open Water Class" could be awesome, or not qualify the student to safely fart in the bathtub and that the only thing that effectively regulates SCUBA training as a whole is concern over being sued.

Complaints about standards violations regularly degenerate into legalistic nit-picking, with one side saying the training was insufficient and the other side holding up insufficient standards saying "we didn't do anything wrong." Then nothing happens. So why get upset now?

And what's Jim going to do? Do you think PADI actually cares what a non-PADI instructor says about something that he didn't even witness?

Bad training sucks.

I spend more time on one class than some people do on four or more. However I've also come to realize that I can't change a greedy, stupid and sometimes corrupt industry, I can only do the best job I can with the students I get.

flots.

 

[Insta-Gator]

Greed is a terrible thing. You can't fix stupid (Ron White)

Devon I agree 100% with everything you said, but can we not use the term 'cowboy' in a derogatory or disparaging way. If someone is irresponsible, call them irresponsible, not a 'cowboy.' Being a cowboy is/was a respected profession. In this country (USA) a lot of our heros were/are cowboys.

 

[RU4SKUBA]

Is it possible a DSD qualified DM was simply providing ignorant customers information about upgrading a DSD program to Padi Scuba Divers (not to be confused with OW divers) and the customers came to you to finish the upgrade?

In this case the DM would be fault-less and the confused customers denied their promised certification because of agency affiliation... and you're going to contact the school district who may forever bar the use of scuba in their pools because of liability fear and ignorance of scuba.

Bear in mind... if you contact the school it may impact the entire district's pool policies and affect dozens of pools, instructors, and divers. And it may not even be necessary.

Perhaps your civic duty can be assuaged by simply contacting Padi and solving the problem through their agency and a strong letter to the alleged rule breakers suggesting a letter to the school district is next?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Whether PADI cares about it or not is neither here nor there. For someone like me who has a conscience it means a great deal. I will sleep better at night knowing I did the right thing by my morals and ethics.

Another poster said if these guys were training to the standards, which according to the diver who called me they are not because they are not going over KR's, they just have them read the book and take them in the pool to do skills and then take them on a couple OW dives. They then tell them they need to find an instructor who will give them a final test, take the word of the club that they are good to go, do two more checkout dives and give them a card. And they are not issuing referrals because DM's cannot issue referrals anyway. They are not even current. they are telling them that PADI allows a DM to take up to two students at a time on OW dives without an instructor present. If PADI doesn't care about that I'd be very surprised.

IF that is ok with you why are you wasting money on Instructor dues, insurance, and PADI? Just print your own card for them.

The other item is that other instructors have taken these guys in the pool and found out that they do not know what they are doing and have refused to accept any of their people. So now they are shopping around for some schmuck who will rubber stamp em for a few bucks. Guess I'll just have to tell the next one if they want that to go to Hawaii. The fact is that the two agencies I certify through have standards that require more than PADI OW standards even permit. Not bashing just a fact. I am required to spend a minimum of 16 hours in the classroom and 16 hours in the pool. They must have completed all skills to agency and my own standards based on what I feel competent divers need. I base that on local conditions. They also must be capable of performing all skills horizontal and in midwater, complete a doff and don, bailout, and buddy breathing training including swims while doing so. They must meet the knowledge requirements which include proficiency with tables and emergency decompression calculation procedures. And PADI KR's mean nothing to me. They do not cover the material I do. They also must be able to rescue a panicked diver, bring an unconscious diver up from depth, and complete a rescue tow while removing gear and giving rescue breaths when possible.

I know for a fact they are getting none of this. They then are telling the people that an instructor will give them a discount because they already have completed some of the requirements. That is also false. My course including materials is $329 for semiprivate lessons. Private lessons start at $425 and go from there. Sometimes private lessons need to happen at the students home for academics or require an unusual schedule- I charge for that.

I will not reduce course costs when I have no idea of what the student has had or where their skills are. It is not worth it. What is happening is that there are people who are calling around and getting prices and not liking it. I'm not out of line with other shops in my area. So they find this club that says hey we'll do ya cheap or free and show you what you need and then you can get a discount. The student doesn't know any better and then they find out that they are not getting a discount, did not get the education they need, and now have to spend more money and effectively double the time.

I talked to this person back in July. He called me and got info for him and his buddy who he now says has dropped out, and told them all the requirements for my class. I had an opening and was willing to work with them on a little bit of a deal because it was both of them. They were even willing to provide a pool since both worked a lifeguards. They said they would talk it over and get back with me. I waited 2 weeks and emailed them and received a reply that they had found an instructor more convenient for them. Ok fine. Then I get this call. They would have been done and fully trained, competent, safe, independent divers long before now. How do I know this- simple they would not have gotten a card if they weren't. Now he is between a rock and hard place and out what, 4 months, gas money to the club, a book that he may not be able to use, and the equipment he was talked into buying. That is just plain wrong. I would happily train him properly but I'm not a charity and he would still need to meet all of my standards. That takes time. And with the weather getting crappy we are looking at drysuits for checkouts which will be another class he will have to spend money. I am not going to let this go on if I can help it.

As for going after the agencies that allow this quickie stuff to go on? Not much I can do right now. I can hope that my book is successful and people use the information in it to start demanding more comprehensive training and more accountability from instructors and shops. I hope that by giving them some guidelines they will be able to find the training they want and need. There will always be those who want instant gratification and quick results. Fine for them. They just will not get it from me and instructors like me who think that training should meet the RSTC standard that some of it's own members observe only when it's convenient or doesn't hurt the bottom line.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Is it possible a DSD qualified DM was simply providing ignorant customers information about upgrading a DSD program to Padi Scuba Divers (not to be confused with OW divers) and the customers came to you to finish the upgrade?

In this case the DM would be fault-less and the confused customers denied their promised certification because of agency affiliation... and you're going to contact the school district who may forever bar the use of scuba in their pools because of liability fear and ignorance of scuba.

Bear in mind... if you contact the school it may impact the entire district's pool policies and affect dozens of pools, instructors, and divers. And it may not even be necessary.

Perhaps your civic duty can be assuaged by simply contacting Padi and solving the problem through their agency and a strong letter to the alleged rule breakers suggesting a letter to the school district is next?

No. These guys are not current, carry no insurance, and are under no instructor supervision. They are "teaching" skills and conducting "classes" on their own. That includes CESA's and OOA drills. Schools should be afraid of liability issues and require insurance. What don't you understand about not current, not insured, not answering to anyone but themselves. PADI is powerless to revoke their status - they have none! And what do I do if that strongly worded letter from PADI doesn't come before someone gets hurt or killed? How do I live with that? Please tell me. I'd like to know how to be that uncaring and unconcerned of a human being.

 

[The Chairman]

What's the name of the club, Jim? Do you have any hard evidence like ads or emails?