Most disturbing phone call I've gotten in a long time

[DevonDiver]

Is it possible a DSD qualified DM was simply providing ignorant customers information about upgrading a DSD program to Padi Scuba Divers (not to be confused with OW divers) and the customers came to you to finish the upgrade?

Nope.

DM conducted DSDs cannot count towards OW. Only Instructor run DSDs, that include the skills (CW1 & OW1) count.

DMs are not authorised to teach any aspect of OW training.
The only course they can teach is Underwater Photo.

 

[flots am]

Bear in mind... if you contact the school it may impact the entire district's pool policies and affect dozens of pools, instructors, and divers. And it may not even be necessary.

That's exactly what will happen.

Anybody contacting the school district about anything that makes them nervous will cause them to deny pool access for all non-school activities.

flots.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Still better than someone getting hurt. What it will affect is those who do not have the proper coverage to be conducting those activities under proper supervision. And there is no if. I will be contacting them. My conscience won't allow me not to now.

 

[The Chairman]

I am hoping this is more of a matter of a miscommunication than non-instructors trying to teach others how to dive.

 

[boulderjohn]

OK, there is something that can be done--in theory at least.

These people are perpetrating a fraud, and that is illegal. They are selling a service they cannot provide. You should be able to report them to the District Attorney's office.

Here's why I said in theory.

Take a look at the web site for this scuba agency: Scuba Divers of America. Now take a look at this opportunity to learn scuba. How about this one (Aquastrophics)?

Everything you see there is all one guy, someone named David Holt. He lives near Lake Havasu, Arizona. He used to be a NAUI instructor, but they removed him for some reason. If you dig through the web site far enough, you will find that he still uses his NAUI number. His web site clearly says that ALL agencies accept his online academic coursework in lieu of their academic training, but in reality NO agency accepts his coursework. He says that students also have the option of getting certified through SDA (Scuba Divers of America), the address for which is a vacant lot. His online nitrox course will get you a nitrox card through SDA as well. SDA is only recognized by one person, and that is the guy who is, in fact, SDA.

So, this is about as fraudulent as it can get. I filed an official complain with the AZ District Attorney, but nothing has happened. The one thing that is different from the last time I checked things out is that the fact that the instructor and the agency are one person is a lot harder to spot now. The agency site does not link to his scuba business the way it used to.

People are being duped by this--I know because I learned about it from past threads in which people talked about being duped. But what can we do about it?

The agencies have a limited ability to respond. If you contact PADI, the primary thing they can do is post the names of the people on the place on their web site where they list people who have in the past claimed to falsely represent them or with whom they have severed relations. But how many people know that page exists and check it, especially people just getting certified?

One thing I have suggested in the past is maintaining a list of known frauds, but when you see things like the Gundi Holm lawsuit, there is a danger there.

Having done as much as I think I can do to deal with the SDA fraud, I am pessimistic about what can be done with this. I think you can do a lot better as a local person than I could do from another state, though. As a former school official, I can tell you right out that I would not want someone using school facilities for fraudulent purposes, especially someone whose lack of insurance could leave me holding the liability bag.

 

[flots am]

IF that is ok with you why are you wasting money on Instructor dues, insurance, and PADI? Just print your own card for them.

That's not as dumb as it sounds and I've actually considered it. It wouldn't take much more than a website, training materials, some standards and a little marketing and insurance.

The other item is that other instructors have taken these guys in the pool and found out that they do not know what they are doing and have refused to accept any of their people. So now they are shopping around for some schmuck who will rubber stamp em for a few bucks.

And that's where it stops, and one of the reasons i'm not all worked up over this.

The students get some pool time, which is always a good thing. However the "schmuck" to rubber stamp the cards is where the "rubber meets the road". There is little difference between signing a card for someone who had a couple of days with a "magic instructor" and someone who had time with a DM, then a "magic instructor". In fact, the second one might be preferrable.

The only real problem (at least the only one that should bother you) is that someone is supposedly signing C-Cards for possibly unqualified students. Only you haven't actually seen this happen and don't really know how qualified the divers are. All you have is "you heard that this shop does this, and maybe that and some DMs might be doing some other thing".

They're either qualified or not, and that's supposed to be the criteria. If somone is signing cards for unqualified divers, that's who you should be going after.

You also seem to have a completely seperate issue with an instructor doing 4 OW dives in one day. While this is apparenly a PADI violation, I don't actually see it as any sort of gross safety issue, and is something that the certification agency might do something about if one of the students who actually did 4 dives in a day complained. Otherwise all you have is second-hand "I heard someone say something about this guy"

Of course the other option is that it's not really happening like that at all. It's easy to see an instructor do 4 dives in a day and just assume it's the same students.

You have a lot of secondhand information and just seem to be set on getting your shorts all twisted over it.

Want to do something useful? Find the instructor who is accepting referrals without paperwork and signing off on students who haven't done the required written exam, pool sessions, skills or dives.

flots.

 

[DevonDiver]

PADI would be interested in this if the 'instructors' concerned were marketing/claiming their training to be an offical PADI 'product'. At the very least it would be copyright infringement.

It'd kinda be the same as if I opened a homemade burger joint and called it 'McDonalds'.

The QA section of the PADI website has numerous warnings about 'XYZ Scuba Centre' is not an authorized PADI centre.... or 'John McDiver' is not a certified PADI Instructor.

I think PADI would be relatively zealous to legally pursue any non-sanctioned 'instructor' who advertised his courses as being PADI. I expect other agencies would do the same.

 

[The Chairman]

PADI would be interested in this if the 'instructors' concerned were marketing/claiming their training to be an offical PADI 'product'. At the very least it would be copyright infringement.

If you are talking about the situation BoulderJohn is discussing, then they already know about it. In fact, PADI, NAUI and SDI/TDI have all made public announcements condemning this individual and his company.

 

[mdb]

Jim:

You are certainly doing the right thing. You are following your own moral compass and alerting others.

The comments here have been very good. Many recognize the problems you have described and are offering good advice.

It seems that most instructors on this board are very serious about what they do and very concerned to properly educate new divers.

Thank you for starting this discussion.

 

[DevonDiver]

They're either qualified or not, and that's supposed to be the criteria. If somone is signing cards for unqualified divers, that's who you should be going after.

There is the hypothetical situation that a fraudulent instructor could forge PIC cards using the details of another unknowing legitimate instructor.