My very first rebreather...

[Danny D]

I agree with what everyone above has said. The entire point of instruction and training on rebreathers is to prevent accidents and educate the pupil on his unit.
The instructor is supposed to walk you through all the steps and saftey checks of taking apart and then rebuilding your equipment so that you fully understand it.
The instructor is supposed to inform you of the signs of O2 hits and other dangers associated with rebreather diving and gas diving..Also he/she should inform you what to do if you show signs of hits....

So basically your instructor was really kind to you and put up with all your mishaps great !!!! Well actually he did't help you put your equipment together, but I can imagine he must have been busy with all the other students (Oh wait in rebreather classes there are usually under 5 students so he should have helped youstep by step). Then when you were gettin O2 hits he didn't end your dives or check your equipment.

My question now is what did you pay over $1000 for a rebreather class when you weren;t really instructed? You could have Died and you are saying it was your fault...NO it isn;t your fault!!!! You were a student ,it is assumed that you have no idea about the class and the functions of a rebreather. You go into the class knowing nothing and it is the Instructors job to teach you everything from the ground up.

If I were you I would demand my money back for the class...then retake it elsewhere.. I can only imagine what else you instructor left out of your instruction.

 

[padiscubapro]

Danny D once bubbled...
I agree with what everyone above has said. The entire point of instruction and training on rebreathers is to prevent accidents and educate the pupil on his unit.
The instructor is supposed to walk you through all the steps and saftey checks of taking apart and then rebuilding your equipment so that you fully understand it.
The instructor is supposed to inform you of the signs of O2 hits and other dangers associated with rebreather diving and gas diving..Also he/she should inform you what to do if you show signs of hits....

So basically your instructor was really kind to you and put up with all your mishaps great !!!! Well actually he did't help you put your equipment together, but I can imagine he must have been busy with all the other students (Oh wait in rebreather classes there are usually under 5 students so he should have helped youstep by step). Then when you were gettin O2 hits he didn't end your dives or check your equipment.

My question now is what did you pay over $1000 for a rebreather class when you weren;t really instructed? You could have Died and you are saying it was your fault...NO it isn;t your fault!!!! You were a student ,it is assumed that you have no idea about the class and the functions of a rebreather. You go into the class knowing nothing and it is the Instructors job to teach you everything from the ground up.

If I were you I would demand my money back for the class...then retake it elsewhere.. I can only imagine what else you instructor left out of your instruction.

The symptoms were of CO2 problems not oxygen..

 

[Danny D]

Ok fault me there , but the point I was trying to get across is that a hit is a hit..you shouldn't be getting them anyways your instructor should be watchful of those situations.

 

[padiscubapro]

Danny D once bubbled...
Ok fault me there , but the point I was trying to get across is that a hit is a hit..you shouldn't be getting them anyways your instructor should be watchful of those situations.

The mistake should have been caught before the unit hit the pool.. if it was missed here it should have been caught within a few minutes of being in the pool.. the symptoms are text-book..

 

[Danny D]

Excactly...he should get his money back

 

[DrMike]

Glad you survived your training Tod.

Looking at this in a slightly different way, at least you have really thoroughly leant the lesson to always check you have correcty assembled your scrubber!!

Valuable lesson probably well learnt now. Bet you wont make that mistake ever again!

So training was actually...... good!

 

[caveseeker7]

Hi guys,
took me a while to get back here, my Mac had several severe RAM hits. :upset:

madmole once bubbled...
... doesn't sound like a good Instructor imho
Caveseeker I think you'd be better look elsewhere for your Prism training ...

In all fairness, so far I've only heard one side of the story, and not quite as detailed as I would like. Before I decide for or against anyone or -thing I always try to get both sides of it.

Even Todd wasn't entirely unhappy with the training, so the detailed story might come across a bit different. He knows it, after all. You guys paint him like a moron, which I doubt he is, and that's not fair to either him or Jeff. I for one appreciate Todd's report, and hope he clears a few things up and stays here.

I'm also a bit suprised that while y'all tearing up Todd and Jeff nobody's mentioned the seller of the rig. You Hammerheads don't wanna upset the big Kahuna? KJ sold the rig, he services MKs, and is an instructor for them.

I wonder why bits and pieces were missing, the rig undivable.
Todd, did the rig come with a list of parts to be replaced? Where you aware how many of them were missing or in unusable condition? Or were you left with the impression that this was a new rig with some dust on it ... ?
Makes wonder how the two other divers and their rigs did. And while I'm usually more intrested in Prisms than MKs, in this case I'm more curious about the 15.5 as it is closer to Todd's.

madmole once bubbled...
Be very interested to hear more of your hypercapnia, symptoms and how you resolved it during the dive

So am I. How long before you noticed, how severe where the symptoms, how long to recover? Where you the only one realizing you got hit while still UW?
Was it caused by the same missing/missassembled/damaged part both times?

Add-ited: Joe, how do your posts stay as objective and seemingly as unemotionless as they are? Is there a course we need to take?
I had to pull myself together again not to give every bit posted before some close and personal attention, flatten feet while I'm at it.

 

[Todd]

Hi Stephen:

First off, thank you very much for your comments.

madmole once bubbled...
Great Instructor!!!!:wacko:

So after watching his pupil spend 3 16 hour days repairing a dinosaur to get it working he then doesn't watch while he assembles it for its first dive in 23 years

I took a class that was scheduled to span seven days, and took nearly half the class just to get my unit in working order. I assume that most instructors expect students to show up to class with a working rebreather. I put the whole class way behind schedule...

With reflection, the error should have been identified before I got in the water. It took a set of very unique and very specific events for the error to have occurred at all, and I accept that what happened, well, happened.

Jeff has a lot of experience with the Mk-15 and Mk-16 series of rebreathers, and continues to dive them on a regular basis. This is a very fluid set of rebreathers, and changes were made to the model(s) as time progressed. The simple truth is that when Jeff dives in this series, he typically dives a Mk-15.5, and not a Mk-15. If I wanted an instructor who dives a Mk-15 day after day, then I would have taken the class from Joe Dituri, whom I like very much. I knew this up front. I decided to take Jeff's class based on schedules (November versus December), cost (Los Angeles versus Honolulu), and the fact that I personally am significantly more comfortable with a warm and fuzzy (to me) versus a military approach (Joe is a Lieutenant in the Navy). Hey, I give all my instructors a "hug-test" before taking a class with them (last step in the process). I cannot resist added that Michael Kane, MHK on this board, passed his "hug-test" easily (I told him I was working my way up to George ).

madmole once bubbled...
He then lets him suffer multiple CO2 hits for 3 days and still doesn't investigate the assemblage of the unit enought to notice a large critical component is missing and O rings elsewhere on the unit are misplaced

I think that I may have unintentionally overstated my experiences. Also, things were not as linear as I made them to be for the sake of simplicity (two days of this, two days of that,...). I certainly suffered at least two "hits," but the rest of the experiences were more frustrating than painful. I would like to address this further in response to Joe's (padiscubapro) post below.

madmole once bubbled...
All this while teaching two different RB classes at the same time

In large part, this was in response to my request to locate additional students to help defray costs.

madmole once bubbled...
Caveseeker I think you'd be better look elsewhere for your Prism training

Stefan, after my experiences, I don't think that you will be able to find a better PRISM instructor anywhere on the planet. Jeff dives the PRISM more than any other rebreather (he owns at least the four that I saw) and he literally wrote the class. The academics are top-notch, and my in-water experience was the exception, not the rule. The PRISM diver in my class had no problems at any time.

madmole once bubbled...
Todd, glad your still alive and with us despite all this. At least you know your unit very well now and I bet you can calculate OC bailout requirements real good. Bet your thinking the MK maybe wasn't such a good deal, must of cost more to repair than a new unit. The good news is of course that youve spent the money now and have a great unit that should last you ages

I think that I have learned a lot about my unit. I think that I still have a lot left to learn. I can calculate bailout three different ways, two of them in my head, thanks to Todd-equations. There certainly were times when I thought that the Mk-15 was not the best choice for me. Right now, I have an open mind, and am actually looking forward to finishing training, hopefully, next week. All the things that I liked about the Mk-15 that led to my purchase, I still like those things a whole bunch. My repair bills, with some improvements tossed in, came to a little more than a thousand dollars. It could have been a lot worse...

madmole once bubbled...
Be very interested to hear more of your hypercapnia, symptoms and how you resolved it during the dive

More to follow regarding this soon, I promise.

Todd.

 

[padiscubapro]

caveseeker7 once bubbled...
Add-ited: Joe, how do your posts stay as objective and seemingly as unemotionless as they are? Is there a course we need to take?
I had to pull myself together again not to give every bit posted before some close and personal attention, flatten feet while I'm at it.

Some things require an emotional response and others do not..

When I first heard the description of the events (actually before Todd posted it), before the person finishing his first sentence "CO2" immediately comes to mind, as the information grows it becomes more and more obvious.

I have no room for compassion when it comes to poor instruction.. Some things are more important than others. RBs have very little room for error and when it comes to this type of training I am a Bas***d. I don't believe in letting the smallest infraction getting by.. People can easily kill themselves.. Th Biomarine series needs attention on scrubber assembly and even experienced divers screw up(check the rebreather archives a very experienced diver from austrailia would have died if it wasn't for his buddies).. A newbie should never be allowed to do this alone..

As to the Rig that Kevin sold... He has it on consignment, it was never dove and was in the original state it was delievered.. If I purchased it I know things would have to have been overhauled, which should have been with the instructor since this type of unit requires the user to maintain him/her self.

I would have expected the sensors to have been changed and the regs overhauled at minimum.. All o-rings with the unit probably also needed replacement.

 

[padiscubapro]

Todd once bubbled...


I took a class that was scheduled to span seven days, and took nearly half the class just to get my unit in working order. I assume that most instructors expect students to show up to class with a working rebreather. I put the whole class way behind schedule....

EVen new units fail out of the box.. The unit has to be inspected regardless of its age.. Buying a rig like a MK 15 I would have expected atleast a day tearing apart and rebuilding the unit.. I am not a MK 15 diver but I do know the complexity of them.. Rebuild and teardown is part of the class.. Individual days should have been scheduled for both the prims diver and yourself. The actual diving and pool work and most of teh academics can easily be shared. The breakdown really can not..

I wasn't trying to criticize your instructor.. You have spoken to me in person and on the phone and you know how I feel about training issues.. Money and time should not be a factor, safe and complete training is the goal..

My criticism was that you complianed about being difficult to breathe and you couldn't stay on the loop.. Being told that the breathing resistance is higher than OTS rigs (which is true) wouldn't have made it hard for you to stay on the loop..

I don't know if you had rapid breathing (you probably did), I wasn't told if you had any chest pains (probably). But this should have been covered in academics about CO2 symptoms..

Also once in the water your motor control skills should have been degraded somewhat and is usually visable to other divers, and if they know what to look for its clear as day..

I am glad you got alot out of this learning experience, but my problem is that CO2 "hits" are serious.. You are lucky you didn't pass out.

I tried to keep my previous responses short and not bash someone where I had only one persons recollection, and just state facts as I was told but now I find myself defending my criticism..
If even one of the above is true its the responsibility of the instructor to prevent when possible and correct it immediately..

I am no rebreather God, just someone who has alot of experience and am supposed to be able to evaluate both diver and potential instructor competance on a particular rig. I tell it the way I see it and hold no punches...