PADI swim test

[Guy Alcala]

How did they look on scuba?

R..

Just as you'd expect; terrified of mask clearing, OOG drills, doff and don, etc in the pool. In short, they struggled, and were always a step away from incipient panic. They were getting warm water referrals so they weren't in our OW dives; I'm just glad I wasn't responsible for them.

Of course, if I had been the instructor I would have told them that before taking scuba lessons with me, they needed to take some swimming lessons and get far more comfortable in the water. In our local conditions I consider it [-]just short of[/-] criminal to take people with such poor watermanship into the ocean, with or without scuba gear. Could I do it? Sure, and they'd almost certainly survive. But I won't, as I'd consider it personal negligence. And at that level of incompetence, I'd consider myself personally negligent to take those two into any water more than chest deep, regardless of gear or conditions.

Guy

 

[Diver0001]

Actually, all it means if they can swim. Eventually swimming stops.

I'd rather the test was to go hangout in the middle of the pool for an hour and not drown. Don't care if the person swims, floats, treads or levitates, as long as an hour later they're still breathing.

Terry

Indeed. now *that* would be relevant to scuba diving...

R..

 

[Diver0001]

Just as you'd expect; terrified of mask clearing, OOG drills, doff and don, etc in the pool. In short, they struggled, and were always a step away from incipient panic. They were getting warm water referrals so they weren't in our OW dives; I'm just glad I wasn't responsible for them.

I see. Well I wouldn't necessarily *expect* that because diving and swimming are different and independent competencies but in combination with looking bad under water and looking nervous about the swimming test then I think you're right. The instructor probably should have gotten alarm bells from that and backed them up.

R..

 

[alchemist117]

Good discussion, but what is trying to be achieved by having swim tests at all. What should people be able to do before being chucked into the middle of an ocean?

 

[idocsteve]

What should people be able to do before being chucked into the middle of an ocean?

Fight back with everything they've got?

 

[Scubagolf]

I'd rather the test was to go hangout in the middle of the pool for an hour and not drown. Don't care if the person swims, floats, treads or levitates, as long as an hour later they're still breathing.

Maybe, but I've always viewed the swim test as a minimum conditioning standard for a sport that, while not necessarily rigorous, does entail some need for physical stamina. A one hour "tread water" test would not seem to accomplish anything. What's the point if you can hang out in water with a full BC acting as a flotation device.

 

[Guy Alcala]

Indeed. now *that* would be relevant to scuba diving...

R..

Except that we don't scuba dive in heated pools, and many of us shore dive so need to be able to get ourselves back to it (possibly while towing/pushing a buddy), while dealing with current, waves, spray, kelp and what have you. Now, I'm all for doing the swim test in the same open water conditions you'll be diving in when possible (and boy, can that be different than swimming laps in a pool), but I recognize the practical difficulties involved.

Well that's really hitting the nail on the head right there. That's the real crux of the difference in philosophy between you (and you are certainly not alone) and PADI.

Personally I don't have a big issue with the swimming requirement but as I said before I seldom get students who can't swim.

What makes me much more nervous are people who are high-strung and/or prone to panic. I personally believe that these people should take up a sport where panic won't kill them.

Probably someone else has a problem with students who have trouble lifting 25kg with one arm

Yet another will have an issue with someone who is dyslexic

or anyone under the age of 15...

... and so on and so on.

Every instructor out there will have their own "red flag" issues that are really important to them. Yours is swimming and that's fine. The nice thing about the system is you wouldn't be required to train them. You're allowed to turn them away, like I might turn away someone who is prone to panic attacks.

I think we agree about weeding out panic-prone individuals, maybe it's just that we have different methods of doing so. I assume, until proven otherwise, that anyone with poor swimming skills is likely to be uncomfortable in the water, especially with anything that involves facial immersion (water in the ears/nose/eyes), or breathing at the surface in choppy conditions, and thus highly prone to panic. I believe anyone who doesn't have these issues will find learning scuba a much easier, less-stressful and safer task. I leave it up to the instructors reading this to say whether they find this to be so -- I know it was in my case, and only through watching a friend of mine try to learn how to swim at an advanced age was I reminded of just how hard it was learning to breathe properly while doing freestyle, or how tough it was keeping water out of my nose while my face was underwater. It'd been so many decades since I learned that the memory of difficulty had completely disappeared, as had memory of any fear of being in/under water.

The key thing for the student, however, is knowing that the agency defines the "bar" and not instructors. It's not like that with all agencies but with PADI it is. The agency has decided that *this* level of swimming competence is good enough.

Well, as you say, not all agencies have that attitude, and I for one want an instructor who will judge me not just by some minimum general standard but by the worst conditions I'm likely to experience. No doubt that's why I find the NAUI/YMCA-SEI approach more congenial.

Could you translate that into singular measureable "tasks" or "competencies"? Like, they should be able to ... < do what, exactly? > What does "survive unharmed" mean in terms of singular measureable tasks?

Without going into too much detail, I think "Not being likely to drown for an extended period" in typical conditions would head that list Being able to make a proper ascent so that you don't embolise or get bent would certainly be there. And I could get more and more specific, but I'll just say that good water skills, decent conditioning and being non-panic prone certainly need to be part of the package.

Guy

 

[TMHeimer]

Maybe, but I've always viewed the swim test as a minimum conditioning standard for a sport that, while not necessarily rigorous, does entail some need for physical stamina. A one hour "tread water" test would not seem to accomplish anything. What's the point if you can hang out in water with a full BC acting as a flotation device.

I found the Tread Water test (even with hands out the last 2 mins. for DM course) is no physical work to speak of--even in fresh water (salt water requires nothing but lying on your back, at least in my case). It's simply a mental task to figure out how to do it without expending much energy--ei-drown-proofing, types of kicks, etc. As far as it being practical I suppose you'd have to do it if you were diving in the tropics with no wetsuit, your weights have been dropped and your BC is uninflatable even orally, and somehow your fins got ripped off so swimming would be tough. Oh, wait a minute, you passed the 200 without fins.....Seriously, it's like a college degree..do what the courses require and you get your degree. Someone set up the tests years back. I think they need revision.

 

[Web Monkey]

Maybe, but I've always viewed the swim test as a minimum conditioning standard for a sport that, while not necessarily rigorous, does entail some need for physical stamina. A one hour "tread water" test would not seem to accomplish anything. What's the point if you can hang out in water with a full BC acting as a flotation device.

No BC. Just the student, the pool and the clock.

Terry

 

[TMHeimer]

Except that we don't scuba dive in heated pools, and many of us shore dive so need to be able to get ourselves back to it (possibly while towing/pushing a buddy), while dealing with current, waves, spray, kelp and what have you. Now, I'm all for doing the swim test in the same open water conditions you'll be diving in when possible (and boy, can that be different than swimming laps in a pool), but I recognize the practical difficulties involved.

Good point. Must remember that swimming with fins/towing-pushing buddy vs. swimming without fins is apples & oranges.





Without going into too much detail, I think "Not being likely to drown for an extended period" in typical conditions would head that list Being able to make a proper ascent so that you don't embolise or get bent would certainly be there. And I could get more and more specific, but I'll just say that good water skills, decent conditioning and being non-panic prone certainly need to be part of the package.

Guy

I agree with all of this and with Web Monkey's point that just staying afloat in the middle of the pool for an hour would be an excellent test.