POINTING FINGERS AFTER A DIVER’S DEATH (rant & discussion)

[FinnMom]

It's kind of off topic but I think that is a failure of certification agencies to present nitrox training during OW classes. You don't know what you don't know and that guy may not have understood the "why" of nitrox because he hadn't undertaken the class. Certification agencies should add a couple pages to their OW manuals and stop trying to make the buck on the extra class.

*** Maybe we should create a separate thread ***
Clearly this would be good, but on the other hand the market hasn't made it happen because the majority of customers don't want it. So many people want a cheaper option, the faster option, the option with less theory to learn and absorb. This doesn't mean a cheapo or inferior option, it just means that they don't need more than a standard model. OW class already includes a lot of expense for renting or purchasing gear, so it's understandable that reasonable and safe savings are welcome. Also, IMO if an OW diver starts from zero and isn't a bookworm, there is a lot theory in an ordinary OW class, especially if you strive to have them permanently, actively remember the vast majority of what they were taught. By this I mean for example, that 3 months after certification I want to ask them to calculate gas use for their entire planned dive and have them answer w/o getting help on theory, or to set up the equations. I want them to be independent divers, to honest-to-God know, as in have ready access in their little grey cells, to what they were taught and how to apply it. For many students the current OW theory is a big enough chunk for at least the first several months.
I do think it's an excellent idea for a liveaboard to provide only nitrox, or free nitrox.

 

[drrich2]

Many divers probably go their whole way through the hobby without ever needing nitrox. Many people seldom if ever go over 2 tanks/day and don't push NDLs, I suspect; anyone believe differently? I'm thinking cruise ship divers, but a number of dive op.s' offerings seem to assume 2 or maybe 3 tanks/day.

It might help us have a common frame of reference to learn just what a dive boat DOES 'owe' the divers. So far, it seems agreed they are to notice if anyone doesn't come back out of the water (consistent, accurate roll call), don't run over anybody, and in the case of an emergency I'm guessing they have to have some sort of marine radio & could radio the coast guard for help?

I'm not asking for 'best practices' or what people want to see on the boat; I'm asking what the boat is obligated to provide.

1.) Emergency O2 capability?
2.) Boat staff watching the water for heads bobbing up & divers in evident distress?
3.) Site briefings?
4.) Staff training in CPR/First Aid?
5.) AED?
6.) Verify the divers have cert.s?
7.) Warn the divers not to exceed some particular depth?
8.) 'Bench' divers who do or come up in deco. if told not to go into deco.?
9.) Monitor max. depths or ending PSI (I'm pretty sure the answer here is no)?

Richard.

 

[Steve_C]

Monitor weather and ocean conditions changing sites or even calling a dive trip depending on conditions that in their experience merit the change. I may charter the boat. But the captain and crew decide if and where I will actually go. And I count on their making those decisions for my safety and enjoyment.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

I'm asking what the boat is obligated to provide.

I know you are not part of the Nanny State Patrol - but I dont believe there is a obligation other than what the coast guard requires.
As far as I know - a charter is required to have a 2 way radio - GPS or coordinates off a nautical map - a way to mark your location, life jackets, fire extinguisher, navigational lights, and maybe a flare or way to signal distress.

 

[Kimela]

Sadly, I've seen far too many divers either not really pay attn to the dive briefing or simply do what they want without regard to the dive briefing. I've never seen a diver come up and confess that they had less than 500 psi or are in deco. Does that really happen?

 

[ams511]

Without venturing into the particulars of which I have no knowlege, but just making generalisations (and not having a go at you)

Regarding gas not being on, BASIC pre dive checks on yourself, breath both regs watching the SPG - How hard is it for a diver to do? Personally it's the first thing I do when I get my gear on before I consider a buddy check.

I have witnesses a lot of divers both complicit in poor buddy checks. One recent (on his rescue course) jumped in and was underweighted. His buddy check, he'd checked he had his weight pockets in but not that he had put weight in! I meet so many people who've "forgotten" how much they need - they don't bother to write it down. Or they've been told they need XX weight often far too much.

Sure DM's on the boat try to carry out "idiot checks" on divers, but perhaps the rise of the full service boats causes diverts to be complacent expecting everything will be done for them.

If I'm running a boat, I'll get your tanks on and off, I'll keep and eye on you assembling your gear, helping and correcting any mistakes but not doing it for you.

If your in my group I'll watch or conduct your buddy checks (you have no idea how many divers think they are too experienced to need to carry out even the most basic pre dive check).

Depending on your experience (the way you kit up etc) I'll physically check your tank valve and make sure you have air in your BCD before you roll, but I can't do it for a whole boat.

Again you have no idea how many divers don't even want to wait for the all clear before they jump.

Divers must take responsibility for themselves as well as being honest with themselves and the charter about their experience.

The boat leaving divers behind of course is a different matter and inexcusable

I was not on the boat and only read about the incident in the newspaper. From what I remember the woman was from China, so there may have been a language issue, however this just my speculation. I am sorry, but when dealing with divers in a vacation location the dive op must realize that s/he is going to get some poor divers. These divers may either be poorly trained or just rusty and usually are not hard to spot. How difficult is it to pay particular attention to them? I am willing to pay extra for boats with no more than 12 divers because the quality of operation is usually better than a boat with 20 or more divers. Also some divers may have no clue for the amount of weight they need because they may have come from a cold water environment or were weighted in fresh water.

The first and last time I was on a cattle boat was in Hawaii. It was a dive to a ship intentionally sunken, not a technical wreck dive. The DM set the hook on the wreck and all was well. I don't remember the exact depth to the bridge but it was like 80 feet or so. He gave the briefing and the key word was brief. The current was more than I was used to and I was blown over the side of the boat looking at my depth gauge I was at 120 or so. I was able to swim back up look for my buddy and start up the line before the rest of the group. As other divers were returning a woman popped up about 75-100 yrds from the boat yelling for help. The dumb ass dive master did not know what to do and went back to his conversation with a Japanese tourist. I grabbed my fins and went after her and towed her back. The lame DM did not even bother to throw the ring. I needed to ask for that. The woman was fine she just panicked after being thrown off the wreck as I was. She didn't do the second dive.

 

[ams511]

All boats are run for profit and those that don't care about diver qualifications usually have no profits. Those that don't care about profits are destined to fail. Profit motivates dive ops and manufacturers to do a better job: not a poor one. I understand that profit is the emotional response to almost any accident, but it's rarely accurate: just emotional.

I think you know of the operation I am discussing, are they still in business? There is nothing evil about profit except when people put profits in front of safety. When a dive op has one problem then may be bad luck. When a dive op has multiple problems then there is something wrong.

Pete when I first moved to Miami, I dropped of my regs to be serviced and when I went to pick them up I asked the dive shop if they had a boat going out for a beginners dive. I hadn't dove for several months and was rusty. The dive shop woman tried to convince me in the worst way to dive the Spiegel Grove. While not a tech dive, it is certainly not the best dive for someone coming off a layoff from diving. All as the woman cared about was that I had an advanced card. I never went back to that shop again.

 

[Bubblesong]

Sadly, I've seen far too many divers either not really pay attn to the dive briefing or simply do what they want without regard to the dive briefing. I've never seen a diver come up and confess that they had less than 500 psi or are in deco. Does that really happen?

The last time we rented a regulator set up that included a console computer, the computer was locked out 24 hours from the previous renters having gone into deco, and the dive shop that rented it to us had no idea. Fortunately, we have our own wrist computers, but we still used the regs, which continued the computer's "you bad diver you" lockout. Then, even after we reported it to the shop, they handed it out to the next student diver. I wonder how that would have looked if someone got DCS injury lawsuit?

 

[scubafanatic]

I must disagree with your premise. The boat has a tremendous amount to do with the safety of the passengers, and the outcome of any accidents. My BP is now up, so I'm going to rant back.

First off, I ran a charter boat for 17 years. We had a reputation of being safe to the detriment of our reputation as a$$holes. So be it, my stated purpose was to bring every diver home. I was not sucessful, but it wasn't due to a lack of duty of care on my part. In the beginning, nitrox was a profit center, and we charged a pretty penny for it. $10 a fill. We ran an average of 8 cases of DCS per 3 month dive season. We dove the Flower Gardens, which are deep and remote, offering 5 dives a day. In 2008 I made nitrox inclusive in the trip fee. My DCS rate dropped to zero that day. As I said, we were a$$holes, we insisted everyone dive nitrox, to the point where if you weren't nitrox certified, we gave you a certification class. If you wanted the card, you had to buy that. Poof, My incidence of DCS dropped to zero. For the following 8 years, I never had anyone get bent.

But the real issue is not what happens in the water, the boat crew can't do MUCH about that, except describe what is unacceptable behavior and carry through with whatever penalties are described for that behavior. For instance, it was considered to be unacceptable in the Spree to run out of gas. If you ran out, you sat out. No exceptions. It was considered unacceptable to surface in deco. You did, you sat until your computer cleared. 24 or 48 hours. No exceptions, unless you were wearing 2 computers. It was considered unacceptable to surface without your buddy, unless you had a good story, or if you were a solo diver.

But back to after you surface. A responsible boat crew makes sure you are back on the boat. A responsible captain makes sure they made sure. A responsible boat makes sure that all first aid equipment is there, ready to use, and in working condition. We had a fatality in Key West yesterday. No AED on the boat, and the O2 kit had a regulator and hose, but no working mask. A dive boat had no working O2 kit. A dive boat had no working O2 kit. Did that sink in yet?

I saved a life last week on another boat. Pretty happy to have one in the win column. Wasn't a diver, but it took all of my skills, an AED, an ambu-bag, O2, Oropharyngeal airway, and plenty of help. I ran a liveaboard with 7 crew so I could have plenty of help and still get underway.

So, yes. The dive boat absolutely has a responsibility to make things not go pear shaped. And regarding profits. I owned the Spree for 14 years. I made a profit in 4 of those years, 1 when I sold the boat, and 3 when I had winter jobs other than diving. Running a dive boat where safety is job 1 and customer service is job 2 is hard on the bottom line. What it does is create an absolutely loyal client who places safety above all else. That was the client I was looking for, it was the client I cultivated, and I didn't want the other kind. That was hard on the bottom line too. I enjoyed an 80 percent return customer rate.

And in 18 years I was never sued for something I did or didn't do. Or for anything else.

I did many a trip out to the TX Flower Gardens/Stetson Bank back in the day on SPREE/FLING and Sea Searcher , and I consider those trips as among the best/most fun diving I've ever done! As Frank says, it's Big Boy diving (deep and VERY remote, sometimes strong currents, and high seas, with night dives as well...it's open ocean diving 110 miles offshore), and the only divers out there are those who REALLY want to go diving, and on a trust worthy boat. SPREE was a very professional operation, yet I always felt an 'at home comfy' sensation while on board, and cut plenty of diver slack once you demonstrated your skill / responsibility level. If you demonstrated 'adult' behavior, you were left alone to dive as you wished, the rules were pretty simple....don't run out of gas / don't violate the max depth limits / don't 'violate' your computer.

110% agree on NITROX, I wouldn't dare dive out there without it, especially since I dove HP 120's for longer dives, did 5 dives daily, and enjoy deep dives as well.

It may sound strange, but I felt honored to be allowed to do trips out there, the Big Boy boat keeps letting me return, invited me to escort divers who might have needed a buddy, invited me to do exploratory diving with them during their repositioning trip to Key West (which I couldn't do because of work/schedule commitments unfortunately).....so maybe I actually have a clue about diving afterall.

 

[scubafanatic]

It's interesting that very experienced divers also view the boat and crew as more than just transportation. I'm not talking about the divemasters (who never worked a class or led a dive) with 467 dives, those guys know everything and are a PITA. I'm talking about the guys who had thousands of scientific dives or even recreational divers with thousands of dives. You could tell who was listening to the briefings. The old guys were next to Mel listening intently, as they are hard of hearing and she isn't very loud. The younger newer divers were next, hanging on every word. The folks who knew everything were in the back, putting on their wetsuits and dicking with gear.

Guess which group got the most pickups in the dinghy?

....best not to get 'The Look' from Mel, for not paying attention.