POINTING FINGERS AFTER A DIVER’S DEATH (rant & discussion)

[Wookie]

No boat captain has succeeded that with me. As I'm always much more relaxed with a much bigger grin on my face. , having really enjoyed the day.

They have never brought you back in the same or better shape then they found you?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

In all seriousness, this reminds me of Gareth Locke's work in Human Factors in diving (if I remembered his username, I'd tag him here).

When there are accidents, why did people make choices that led to the accident. I've come close to one accident myself with a student panicking. Nothing came of it, and I figured out how to address it successfully (basically emphasizing in future classes), so that when it does happen, students realize that it is expected and don't panic.

Unfortunately in the case of fatalities, the deceased cannot be asked why they did certain things. And when it comes to lawsuits (which never brings anyone back), this information is not released. If I were ever killed in an accident caused by someone else, I would not want there to be a lawsuit, but rather a full disclosure of all information so that someone else's life may be saved in the future.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

They have never brought you back in the same or better shape then they found you?

100% of the time MUCH better. Never the same. Now I realize how much I miss boat diving. Been a while.

 

[Johnoly]

....It seems that any time a diver dies, among the first things people want to know is, “What boat were they on?” .....

It's just the 'un-educated' and they don't understand fully the activity.

As an example............
If you are a photographer and someone sees your nice picture, the 1st question they ask is " What kind of camera do you have? " Ummm why?
If the chef comes to your table during a great meal...have you ever asked "What kind of oven do you have?? "

Don't try to explain in 5 minutes what took you years to master. Just pass them aside.

 

[Clark Fletcher]

I'm sure there will be many who won't agree but, in my opinion, this goes way beyond just diving accidents and who is responsible.

We have, in my humble opinion, cultivated a mentality in our society where many of us no longer believe that we are responsible for our own actions, our own mistakes, and yes even our own lives. Much like the mentally of "I don't need to work because the government will take care of me".

So, when something bad happens to us or something doesn't go exactly according to plan, instead of asking "how can I fix this and how can I prevent it from happening again in the future", many of us are thinking, who else can I blame and how can I make them pay for my mistake. The fact that this conversation has gone on as far as it has is proof of that.

Of course there are going to be times when someone else's careless mistake ends in tragedy but, did they intentionally do something wrong knowing full well that someone might die? Highly unlikely. Yes, in cases of clear negligence, where someone dies as a direct result of that negligence, they should be held responsible. But, those are few and far between.

The vast majority of all diving incidents are the result of a lack of attention to detail by the diver or an intentional violation of safe diving practices. As divers, regardless of everything else, we are responsible for our own safety. And pointing fingers will not bring back those who are victims of their own carelessness.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

And when it comes to lawsuits (which never brings anyone back), this information is not released.

That's not necessarily true. In a case where there's a suit that actually goes to trial, everything at trial is public information. Just get a transcript. Part of the issue I see is that people not only want all the info NOW, they want it handed to them. No one wants to work to dig and go find it. A lot of times it's out there somewhere. And then you throw in the issue of time. One very famous non-fatal case I worked on took over five years to resolve. A recent fatal case took almost three years. People (not just divers) simply don't pay attention for that long. Analyzing/researching/understanding accidents is like watching paint dry. It's not like a fast-food order.

 

[Bubblesong]

From what I understand, if the insurance companies have to pay out, they search for who can be sued so they can recoup losses. For example, time I require physical therapy or surgery, I get grilled by the insurance company about whether the medical issue developed due to work injury or car accident or how exactly it happened. If you recall the case of the aunt that sued the nephew over the "birthday hug", the revelation was that the insurance company that paid her medical bills was forcing the lawsuit. @Ken Kurtis , have you seen this happen in your neck of the woods?

 

[Wookie]

Ken, you have far more experience as an expert than I do, I am in my first case as a captain now. So I haven't seen the stupidity that is our justice system first hand, so you and I are coming from completely different looks at the same issue. But do you see plaintiffs actually blaming the boat for what (to any interested observer) is obviously the fault of the diver? Running out of air comes completely to mind. And can you elaborate?

 

[dmaziuk]

You misconstrue my premise, Frank. I didn't contend the boat has no responsibility or role in safety. The underlying premise is that the boat often gets blamed (and sometimes sued) for things - like a diver running out of air - that are beyond their control or responsibilities.

Human brain is a machine for spotting patterns. If it repeatedly hears "diver dead" and "boat such-n-such" in a sentence, that's an easy pattern to spot.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

That's not necessarily true. In a case where there's a suit that actually goes to trial, everything at trial is public information. Just get a transcript. Part of the issue I see is that people not only want all the info NOW, they want it handed to them. No one wants to work to dig and go find it. A lot of times it's out there somewhere. And then you throw in the issue of time. One very famous non-fatal case I worked on took over five years to resolve. A recent fatal case took almost three years. People (not just divers) simply don't pay attention for that long. Analyzing/researching/understanding accidents is like watching paint dry. It's not like a fast-food order.

I agree that there is a tendency of instant gratification not being soon enough. However, sometimes are there not cases that are settled out of court in which important information is not disclosed?