PSAI Narcosis Management course - 73m on air

[Kevrumbo]

There's a lot of FUDD being preached here: Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt and Deception. Let's put this in perspective, shall we? In over fifty years, they have barely exceeded the Scuba death count here in the Keys for two years.

If you feel uncomfortable with the course: don't take it. Commenting on the efficacy of a course without having taken it is just chest thumping, ego driven drivel. I would much rather read from those who HAVE taken it then to endure the continuing pontifications of those who have not.

While waiting for more divers who HAVE taken the course to comment (or for the Original Poster "Tortuga68" to come back from another 73m Air Dive) . . .

Why don't you stop by over there in Ocala Florida at 40 Fathom Grotto and interview the people who developed and/or currently administers this course?

Go ahead Pete, allay our fears and tell us that you would have no apprehension about taking this class and applying its practicality for any other deep dive NOT similar to the confines at 40 Fathom Grotto (for instance down there in Keys where like you say Pete, "In over fifty years, they have barely exceeded the Scuba death count for two years. . .")

---------- Post added September 26th, 2014 at 11:57 AM ----------

Hey Pete, speaking of drivel, read this "drivel":

. . . This Narcosis Management® course is taught on air, to better prepare divers for Trimix diving which requires the use of the less forgiving helium based gases. Good buoyancy control, gas management, gas switches and runtimes are best learned while diving on air. However, divers certified on other gas mixtures or rebreathers can also benefit from Narcosis Management® training. . .
PSAI Narcosis Management

 

[The Chairman]

Why don't you stop by over there in Ocala Florida at 40 Fathom Grotto and interview the people who developed and/or currently administers this course?

Kevin, I don't know if it's simple ignorance or willful ignorance on your part. 40 fathom grotto has not been affiliated with PSAI for some time now and the website proudly proclaims that it's run by the Commercial Diving Institute. However, I have known Hal, the mad genius behind PSAI since 1969 when I bought my first pair of Jets and a mask from him. I even have a signed copy of the manual in question and was encouraged to take the class by Hal personally. We talked at length about the purpose and scope of the class, which is why I am convinced you have no clue. No, I still don't know if your ignorance is simple or willful, just that you are full of hot air once again.

I've noticed this flawed philosophy again and again and quite often amongst tech divers: "If I don't dive, teach or sell it, then it must be crap!" It's a philosophy filled with FUDD logic and frankly, the rest of us have a hard time not making fun of it. "You're gonna die if _________" Just fill in the blank. Split fins, MOF, NMOF, BWOD and yes, even deep air. You don't like something, or at least your ego, doesn't like something and so you derail the thread to preach all your FUDDy dudd ideas. It's asinine, myopic, counter productive and ego driven. It's also not fun and off topic.

If you don't know anything about the class then read and let those who do know comment. No, it doesn't appease your ego, but I am confident nothing will.

 

[Kevrumbo]

Kevin, I don't know if it's simple ignorance or willful ignorance on your part. 40 fathom grotto has not been affiliated with PSAI for some time now and the website proudly proclaims that it's run by the Commercial Diving Institute. However, I have known Hal, the mad genius behind PSAI since 1969 when I bought my first pair of Jets and a mask from him. I even have a signed copy of the manual in question and was encouraged to take the class by Hal personally. We talked at length about the purpose and scope of the class, which is why I am convinced you have no clue. No, I still don't know if your ignorance is simple or willful, just that you are full of hot air once again.

I've noticed this flawed philosophy again and again and quite often amongst tech divers: "If I don't dive, teach or sell it, then it must be crap!" It's a philosophy filled with FUDD logic and frankly, the rest of us have a hard time not making fun of it. "You're gonna die if _________" Just fill in the blank. Split fins, MOF, NMOF, BWOD and yes, even deep air. You don't like something, or at least your ego, doesn't like something and so you derail the thread to preach all your FUDDy dudd ideas. It's asinine, myopic, counter productive and ego driven. It's also not fun and off topic.

If you don't know anything about the class then read and let those who do know comment. No, it doesn't appease your ego, but I am confident nothing will.

Ego has nothing to do with it Pete. And don't obfuscate by characterizing my assessment as "willful ignorance via alarmist FUDD" when objectively it simply is a sound reasoning for Caveat Emptor. . .

 

[The Chairman]

Ego has nothing to do with it Pete.

Egos are like narcosis: Quite often the affected individual has no clue they are so affected. Denial is not just another river in Egypt.

And don't obfuscate by characterizing my assessment as "willful ignorance via alarmist FUDD" when objectively it simply is a sound reasoning for Caveat Emptor. . .

The truth hurts, but it will set you free only if you embrace it. Obviously, we found that people trying to learn technical diving on their own is often disastrous. Whether it's diving in caves, diving helium mixes or even deep air, technical diving requires an attention to detail in planning and execution that requires a formal education. Those who try to learn by experimenting often die in the process. What does it prove? That deep air is bad or that diving without proper training is Russian Roulette? Rather than deal in FUDDs and declare that anyone diving differently than me is going to die, I'm going to side with those who want to do this getting the proper training.

It's all a matter of perspective, and I find yours lacking.

 

[Kevrumbo]

Egos are like narcosis: Quite often the affected individual has no clue they are so affected. Denial is not just another river in Egypt.

The truth hurts, but it will set you free only if you embrace it. Obviously, we found that people trying to learn technical diving on their own is often disastrous. Whether it's diving in caves, diving helium mixes or even deep air, technical diving requires an attention to detail in planning and execution that requires a formal education. Those who try to learn by experimenting often die in the process. What does it prove? That deep air is bad or that diving without proper training is Russian Roulette? Rather than deal in FUDDs and declare that anyone diving differently than me is going to die, I'm going to side with those who want to do this getting the proper training.

It's all a matter of perspective, and I find yours lacking.

Qualitative objective reasoning, and not quantitative useless rhetoric like yours above Pete --and it's patently obvious that your own obtuse "Shenanigan Logic" is truly lacking perspective in and of itself. . .

 

[Dr. Lecter]

You put Ormsby (not to mention a bunch of guys in the 140'-160' range) on a list of deaths purportedly attributable to air? That's scoring an own-goal, Kev...poof goes its credibility.

It would be interesting to see when you'd agree trimix was a viable option for all divers. Before that date, saying someone died because of deep air is no different than saying they died from deep diving. Not that I think you or AJ would do the work to make the list more useful, but has it been scrubbed of victims of heart attacks or similarly non-diving related causes of death? I don't care what mix you're on past 130', if you have a serious medical emergency down there you're almost certainly going to die. That's just the way it works, and you accept it or you don't dive down there.

 

[boulderjohn]

You put Ormsby (not to mention a bunch of guys in the 140'-160' range) on a list of deaths purportedly attributable to air? That's scoring an own-goal, Kev...poof goes its credibility.

Why is Ormsby's death a problem? Here is one description of it:

The 1980's claimed four lives. The most gruesome was in 1985 when a Florida diver, John Ormsby got clipped into a dangling cable and could not get free. At 210 fsw the narcosis coupled with panic sent him into a frenzy. His panic, coupled with a restrictive gear configuration resulted in his mangling and twisting himself around more cables and wires to the point where recovery divers needed to use bolt cutters to extricate his body.

If you read a more thorough description of the entire dive, you learn that Ormsby had problems from the start, and he was separated from the others when he got tangled. How he got into that nest of cables in the first place is a potential reaction to narcosis, a crashing, blundering entrance I read about some years ago in a source I cannot find now.

 

[PfcAJ]

That's also not a complete list, and the list doesn't continue to present day. It's just a list.

A more telling list would be the one of divers who died in >100ft of water with an END of <100ft. The list is short.

 

[Kevrumbo]

That's also not a complete list, and the list doesn't continue to present day. It's just a list. A more telling list would be the one of divers who died in >100ft of water with an END of <100ft. The list is short.

And the most infamous telling tragedy is the story of a Father & Son Buddy Pair, both names on that deep air fatality list: The Last Dive - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Why is Ormsby's death a problem? Here is one description of it:


If you read a more thorough description of the entire dive, you learn that Ormsby had problems from the start, and he was separated from the others when he got tangled. How he got into that nest of cables in the first place is a potential reaction to narcosis, a crashing, blundering entrance I read about some years ago in a source I cannot find now.

You neglect to mention that he was explictly told his cave diving rig, covered in suicide clips, was a ty idea for the wreck and he said he knew best. The wreck said otherwise.

The crashing, blundering entrance (and exit, as he kept falling down) was described by a woman who was on the dive and who almost lost her mask when Ormsby crashed into her. It was recounted either in The Last Diver or Shadow Divers I think. The role of his adamant gear choices was mentioned in both books.

---------- Post added September 26th, 2014 at 04:20 PM ----------

And the most infamous telling tragedy is the story of a Father & Son Buddy Pair, both names on that deep air fatality list: The Last Dive - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Indeed, at depth and working hard on air isn't a great idea. Not sure you can attribute the kind of complete loss of control by two divers that incident involved to narcosis based on what I've read, but I'll give you that there is less of a margin for error on air at that depth than on trimix. There's also less of a margin for error in many ways on OC than on CCR, where deep diving is concerned - strangely enough, people still dive the former.