Question for tec instructors...

[scubanimal]

While this may not be the 'proper' forum to post this I am interested in hearing from those who frequent this forum.

Since many of the rebreather divers here have had adv tec training I am wondering if you experienced or knew of instructors who do things like turning off student's air or ripping student masks off while inside confined environments (like a wreck)? If so what do you think of those drills? Are there agencies that condone this?

And finally, have you been with instructors who after the drills are done, send you off solo to finish out your dive and then ascend, so that they (the instructor) can go do his own solo dive?

 

[padiscubapro]

While this may not be the 'proper' forum to post this I am interested in hearing from those who frequent this forum.

Since many of the rebreather divers here have had adv tec training I am wondering if you experienced or knew of instructors who do things like turning off student's air or ripping student masks off while inside confined environments (like a wreck)? If so what do you think of those drills? Are there agencies that condone this?

in general confined enviroment = pool or a controlled ow area similiar in conditions to a pool.. your description more closely is an overhead enviroment.
first, ripping off a students mask at depth isn't a good idea in most cases especiall in an ovehead enviroment.. doing it in a confined enviroment like a pool can be done safely.. I wouldn never suggest anyone do it in an overhead enviroment, there are better ways to accomplish the same goal.. and yes there are agancies that do allow this type of harrassment..
all that being said, I think some of the surprise harrasment is acceptable for those training to become instructors at a technical level, they must be able to handle anything, while at the diver lever its inappropriate IMHO..
The way I handle (and teach my instructors to accomplish the same thing) is to have flash cards that say something like LOST MASK, and if the mask isn't immediately removed (without any prep or delay), the dive does not count and the student will have to repeat the dive,the fear of having to do it agan and possibly pay for another dive usually gets the goal accomplished....

And finally, have you been with instructors who after the drills are done, send you off solo to finish out your dive and then ascend, so that they (the instructor) can go do his own solo dive?

the instructor should be with the student throught the dive... if the instructor wants to solo, he should surface and ensure the diver exits the water before doing his own thing..

I understand why you are asking this (in light of recent events)

 

[wedivebc]

I know it is done by some agencies but I often wonder if something goes wrong.
prosecutor: "Did you remove the life supprting air regular from the deceased's mouth?"
instructor: "yes I did"
prosecutor: "Did you do this intentionally of was it an accident?"
instructor: "I did it on purpose"

Sounds like shakey ground to me. Don't think it has had to stand up in a court yet but removing life supporting dive equipmentat depth may equate to assault if it ever results in a serious accident.

 

[BigJetDriver]

Animal,

Joe has delineated the conditions quite well. I would just like to add that the Instructor Trainer has the ultimate responsibility to do two things:

(1) His basic responsibility is to turn out a good instructor who will be a credit to his agency, and himself.

(2) In that process, the Instructor Trainer must teach safely, and instill safe practices in his Instructor Candidate.

In PSD training, we devise training scenarios that put the student under some stress and time-pressure. We have one drill, for example, in which we tangle a student up in monofilament line, and expect the student to free himself (or herself) by touch alone. Our students dive in blacked-out masks.

Please note here that this exercise is done in the POOL, and with safety divers to both sides of the student.

On the opposite side of the coin, I had one instructor in a technical diving class who told me that it was his intent to catch me by surprise at depth and cut my primary LP hose.

I told him that, after I dealt with the problem, and we got back on shore, I would arrest him for assault with intent to cause bodily harm. (Note: He got the message!)

The take-home message here for instructors is very simple. Strive to make your training scenarios SAFE and EFFECTIVE. If you hurt or kill one of your students in a training exercise of your own device that is not set up to protect the student, you may forgive yourself, BUT NO ONE ELSE WILL.

 

[caveseeker7]

Don't think it has had to stand up in a court yet but removing life supporting dive
equipmentat depth may equate to assault if it ever results in a serious accident.

I told him that, after I dealt with the problem, and we got back on shore, I would
arrest him for assault with intent to cause bodily harm. (Note: He got the message!)

Dave. Rob, I like your trains of thought here. :linkz:

I was about to ask what instructors get taught in regards to
students armed with knifes feeling assaulted ... :bluthinki

 

[scubanimal]

PadiScubaPro - you are dead on, recent events is my motivation behind the question. Many of us are trying to figure out why things were done. I am trying to convey doing the aforementioned drills while inside a wreck seemed out of line in the training I and others have to date, and since I am looking forward to more tech training I wanted to know what to expect.

So I take none of you have had this type of '"training" done to you?

 

[Otter]

PadiScubaPro - you are dead on, recent events is my motivation behind the question. Many of us are trying to figure out why things were done. I am trying to convey doing the aforementioned drills while inside a wreck seemed out of line in the training I and others have to date, and since I am looking forward to more tech training I wanted to know what to expect.

So I take none of you have had this type of '"training" done to you?

I take it you are refering to Steve's death (based upon your comment above AND your location). Are you implying that some or all of the above occured? Are you an Attorney?

 

[wedivebc]

PadiScubaPro - you are dead on, recent events is my motivation behind the question. Many of us are trying to figure out why things were done. I am trying to convey doing the aforementioned drills while inside a wreck seemed out of line in the training I and others have to date, and since I am looking forward to more tech training I wanted to know what to expect.

So I take none of you have had this type of '"training" done to you?

I have had these things done to me but in a pool and a very controlled environment. The instructor harassed us while we were attempting to perform basic valve drills etc. I found it a challenging experience. I would never be comfortable on the giving or the receiving end of this treatment at depth or in a wreck.
I usually employ Joe's technique of writing the skill on a slate and having the student perform the appropriate drill.

 

[peterbj7]

As a relative novice I'm totally with the prevailing view. Training is meant to simulate a dangerous situation, not to create one. The skill of the instructor comes in devising a safe scenario which appears otherwise to the student. Which is where Rob's comment about the role of the IT comes in. I can't think of any agency that would condone the sort of practice that has been described.

Rob - do you have special stainless steel handcuffs or do you carry them in a waterproof bag? I suppose your British counterpart would have to have one of those air horns that works under water (even though it sounds like a duck), as the pea in a conventional whistle would get waterlogged.

 

[BigJetDriver]

As a relative novice I'm totally with the prevailing view. Training is meant to simulate a dangerous situation, not to create one. The skill of the instructor comes in devising a safe scenario which appears otherwise to the student. Which is where Rob's comment about the role of the IT comes in. I can't think of any agency that would condone the sort of practice that has been described.

Rob - do you have special stainless steel handcuffs or do you carry them in a waterproof bag? I suppose your British counterpart would have to have one of those air horns that works under water (even though it sounds like a duck), as the pea in a conventional whistle would get waterlogged.

Peter, Animal, Seeker, and BC,

You are all quite right in your thinking. If an agency allowed this kind of "creation of real danger" in a training situation, they would be woefully and egregiously at fault if injuries or death occurred.

Peter,

They are aluminum (sorry...aluminium), but I don't take them with me because they don't fit well on fish!! :11: