Recipe for Trouble: Pressuring a Diver to Make a Dive

[DevonDiver]

Of the many practices that could migrate down from technical level to recreational level training... the concept that "Any Diver Can Abort Any Dive, At Any Time, For Any Reason" should definately be highlighted.

That concept... profound safety-enhancing advice... should feature prominantly in diving training from Open Water onwards...

 

[Lorenzoid]

I have been on so many night dives where someone jumps in the water, gets scared and thumbs the dive shortly after the start. It would be sad if this impacted the entire boat. Why should I cancel my dive with my own buddy for that? However since Gfaif clarified the situation that it was a group of only 4 divers with the DM I would not have an issue in this. Anyways I am not trying to drag this out to 50 pages like some other topics.

Okay, I get it. The case of a diver jumping in the water on a night dive and thumbing it shortly after the start, because the diver shouldn't have been there in the first place, is a pretty extreme case. In that case, I would hope the dive op lets the group restart the night dive after the other diver has exited, or if not, offers some compensation, such as a voucher for tomorrow's night dive. If the dive op just said "sorry, sh*t happens," I don't think I would dive with them again.

On cenote dives, I have always had a private guide, though it is true that the generally accepted limit is four divers. I wouldn't want to be there with even three other people whom I don't know. To me, cenote dives are very special experiences that I traveled a long way for. But it occurred to me that any dive that one considers "special" is worth having a private DM for, to help ensure you get all you can out of it.

I'm not sure how you being a DM is relevant, but okay, thanks for sharing that. Comments and suggestions posted here are not directed at you specifically. There are others reading this thread, you know.

 

[Storker]

Okay, I get it. The case of a diver jumping in the water on a night dive and thumbing it shortly after the start, because the diver shouldn't have been there in the first place, is a pretty extreme case. In that case, I would hope the dive op lets the group restart the night dive after the other diver has exited, or if not, offers some compensation, such as a voucher for tomorrow's night dive. If the dive op just said "sorry, sh*t happens," I don't think I would dive with them again.

If I were in a group and had paid for my dive, I'm pretty certain I'd be p****d off if the dive was aborted after a short time. OTOH, I'd really, really (really!!!) prefer not getting my money's worth over being involved in an incident or an accident because someone in my group didn't thumb the dive when they ought to. Lesser of two evils etc. The ocean will be there tomorrow, and the next year, and my diving hobby costs so much anyway that the price of one lost dive would just be a drop in the ocean (pun not intended)

I do agree with you, though, that the op should be professional enough to have a plan B in case one of the patrons were in over their head (again, pun not intended) and did the only sensible thing: thumbing the dive. And that would probably make the barrier to thumbing the dive smaller for the patron in question, which is a Good Thing(tm)

 

[Neilwood]

If I were in a group and had paid for my dive, I'm pretty certain I'd be p****d off if the dive was aborted after a short time. OTOH, I'd really, really (really!!!) prefer not getting my money's worth over being involved in an incident or an accident because someone in my group didn't thumb the dive when they ought to. Lesser of two evils etc. The ocean will be there tomorrow, and the next year, and my diving hobby costs so much anyway that the price of one lost dive would just be a drop in the ocean (pun not intended)

I do agree with you, though, that the op should be professional enough to have a plan B in case one of the patrons were in over their head (again, pun not intended) and did the only sensible thing: thumbing the dive. And that would probably make the barrier to thumbing the dive smaller for the patron in question, which is a Good Thing(tm)

Agreed.

I would rather everyone could walk away from an incident and be able to argue the merits of calling a dive than the alternative.

I think the ability to thumb a dive without repercussions should be drummed in to every diver at every step from OW classroom onwards. It is highly unlikely that you wouldn't be able to make another trip if you do however should you push it and end up in the bottom of an incident pit, you might not ever dive again

 

[boulderjohn]

In almost every case I can think of with a cenote dive, a person thumbing the dive and thus ending it for everyone else would not be a really big deal. You are almost always pretty close to an exit. It would not be hard to swim the group to the exit, watch the concerned person exit the water, and then return to the dive.

I fully agree that any time someone wants to end a dive, the dive needs to end. You do not want to be the one responsible for pressuring someone to do a dive they are not comfortable with and then have that person die on that dive.

 

[kafkaland]

Of the many practices that could migrate down from technical level to recreational level training... the concept that "Any Diver Can Abort Any Dive, At Any Time, For Any Reason" should definately be highlighted.

That concept... profound safety-enhancing advice... should feature prominantly in diving training from Open Water onwards...

Agreed, times ten. I would try to frame "buddy calling the dive" as one of those things that happen once in a while, and are completely outside of your control. Like high surf preventing the boat from going out, or lightning at your local quarry. It does happen, and sure, you're disapppointed, but it's part of the sport, part and parcel. And the day will come where it's your turn to call the dive, for whatever reason, or no reason at all, and you'll be glad that you can do so without repercussions.

As an anecdote, I'm not sure even cave instructors appreciate that the rule applies to them as well: When I was at the intro level, I did a few guided dives at that level with a well-respected instructor. After our first dive of the day, he looked ashen. I asked him if he was ok, and he insisted he was. The second dive was a downstream dive in an unusually stron current (for Mexico). During the dive, I got more worried about him than about myself, just watching him to pull himself along the line to get back out. Back on land, he was close to throwing up. Maybe a dive he shouldn't have done, paying client or not? Needless to say, the next morning he called to cancel the dives for the day, profusely apologizing. I just went cavern diving and still enjoyed myself. No need for anyone to push himself beyond what the body or mind can handle at any given day. There is always tomorrow, and a cancelled dive is most certainly not the end of the world, not even something to get upset about. It just happens, like bad weather.

 

[billt4sf]

Hyperventilating, the woman was building up dangerous levels of Co2 at an alarming rate. Her brain was reading oxygen starvation which, is why she thought her equipment failed. Many people in this terrible state spit out their regulators. The woman kept hers in but did the next worse thing. She bolted to the surface without a safety stop.

I have not heard of this. Could you elaborate, please?

- Bill

 

[Storker]

Hyperventilating, the woman was building up dangerous levels of Co2 at an alarming rate. Her brain was reading oxygen starvation which, is why she thought her equipment failed. Many people in this terrible state spit out their regulators. The woman kept hers in but did the next worse thing. She bolted to the surface without a safety stop.

I have not heard of this. Could you elaborate, please?

- Bill

You have not heard of it, because it's completely wrong. And it was addressed by @fmerkel back in post #8.

 

[kelemvor]

Is that taught in OW classes today? If not, it should be. I didn't learn about it until I started looking into tech diving. As I understand it, it has its origins in tech diving. But it clearly should be emphasized in every OW class. I also recall my Rescue course discussing peer pressure, but I don't recall that being discussed in my OW course, either.

It was drilled home in my NAUI OW class a few years ago. Even came with a different but memorable story about how the instructor had to call a dive somewhere and ended up having to hang on to a buoy for a while, earning him the nickname "buoy boy".

With 50 or so certification agencies out there, I'm sure it's all over the map.

 

[Patoux01]

I'm wondering if they're still in a relationship