Recommendations for divemaster course in Thailand

[padiscubapro]

No, I'm quite certain that I understood what you wrote. You discussed training locales for dive professionals (and you did not mention experience gained through leisure diving). From the fact that a large proportion of UK dive training takes place at such locations. Do you agree that this same argument would apply to divers whose entire training was undertaken in the UK through one club/shop? Sorry, but that is not what you wrote originally. A straightforward reading of your original statement claimed that dive pros who have had at least part of their training in conditions similar to those in the UK (and I quote) 'make for far more accomplished dive professionals' than those of us, myself included, who have done our professional training in warm water. My contention is that this is a specious argument since we can acquire the necessary cold-water skills, such as dry-suit skills, as needed and as I myself have done.
I have personally dived in "easy" cold water locales and "challenging" warm water ones, done "easy" shore dives and "challenging" boat dives, as well as the opposite. And yes, my personal growth as a diver has been enhanced by overcoming various challenges. However, while it's true that Thailand diving is accessible to divers of virtually all skill levels, that point is irrelevant because the water temperature at the training location contributes nothing in terms of the qualities of professionalism needed to be an excellent instructor or DM. Certainly a large part of our effort in training prospective dive pros is imbuing our candidates with these qualities. This aspect of training is not geographically bound. Dive skills are easily acquired as and when needed; professionalism, on the other hand, is a constant. It requires good role models and mentors, and I believe these positive role models and mentors are present in sufficient numbers here in Thailand just as they are in the UK and elsewhere.
Yes, I would agree with this statement, given that it doesn't specifically claim that a dive pro must have UK-like experience in order to be worthy of the title PRO.

I have trained divers and instructors all over the world, and my impression is that divers/instructors that have done all their training in just one type of enviroment never become better than a mid tier instructor as they dont have experience in varied enviroments.. Divers from different enviroments have different base skill sets, warm water only divers tend to have better buoyancy control than their cold water only counterparts.. where as I find most warm water divers have relatively poor navigation skills and depend on good viz to get them around...

But its not just warm vs cold, you also need exposure to enviroments where the entry/exit point has to be the same (like being tied into a wreck), as well as being able to do a drift exit/ entry... Professionals that dont have adequate experience in varied conditions can't transfer this knowledge to their students effectively..

for example I am a cold water diver and most of my students are avid wreck divers, they mostly come to me with a specific skill set, when they ask me to do advanced training like extended range or Trimix I usually suggest we go to a warm water destination so that we can push runtimes and I can ensure that they have other skills that they may need to use in the future...

I find that the cold water divers are usually more relaxed while out of their element than the reverse.. I find its ALOT easier to work with cold water divers in a warm water enviroment than the other day around.. I remember about 15 years ago or so that I invited a warm water trained instructor that insisted that he could dive and train in any enviroment up to ny to do a relative easy wreck dive (and good conditions.. verry little current and 10-15ft viz) on one of the sites we use for training.. I had him "lead" as if he was the instructor... after a few minutes it was clearly evident that he was VERY nervous.. at our agreed upon turn time I signaled to him its time to go back.. he immediately started to progress in the wrong direction.. If he was leading a group of divers we probably would have had a rescue on hand... even after I pointed him in the right direction, he failed to recognize where we were and swam right past the anchor line.. He also felt that a pony bottle was an unnecessary item, but he was glad when he had one to use (mandated by boat) after he was OOg..

I am not saying warm water diving can't be challenging (I have had some very hard warm water dives) but what is usually the exception is the norm off places like the UK and NE USA..

even the similiarites there for conditions the diving style is VERY different.. In the NE we all tie into the wreck and the diver MUST go up and down the anchor linem whereas in the UK most of the diving is done from ribs and its free ascent/deco.. These require different skill sets as well and experience is needed in the other enviroment before you can take responsibility there..

 

[limbo]

Jamiemac said;

That's cos you had a brilliant CD.

The MSDT in Similans wasn't bad either, was it? ;

Anyone else thinks it smells funny around here?

Kiddin aside, neither was a drift dive and whilst doing it managing to hit the Hard Deep and my first dive deeper than 40 meters, guess that must've been at the Samae San hole with some amazing viz.

Marine 2 was in there somewhere :shades:

Those were the days. Good memories!

 

[penguintom]

I have trained divers and instructors all over the world, and my impression is that divers/instructors that have done all their training in just one type of enviroment never become better than a mid tier instructor as they dont have experience in varied enviroments.. Divers from different enviroments have different base skill sets, warm water only divers tend to have better buoyancy control than their cold water only counterparts.. where as I find most warm water divers have relatively poor navigation skills and depend on good viz to get them around...

But its not just warm vs cold, you also need exposure to enviroments where the entry/exit point has to be the same (like being tied into a wreck), as well as being able to do a drift exit/ entry... Professionals that dont have adequate experience in varied conditions can't transfer this knowledge to their students effectively..

for example I am a cold water diver and most of my students are avid wreck divers, they mostly come to me with a specific skill set, when they ask me to do advanced training like extended range or Trimix I usually suggest we go to a warm water destination so that we can push runtimes and I can ensure that they have other skills that they may need to use in the future...

I find that the cold water divers are usually more relaxed while out of their element than the reverse.. I find its ALOT easier to work with cold water divers in a warm water enviroment than the other day around.. I remember about 15 years ago or so that I invited a warm water trained instructor that insisted that he could dive and train in any enviroment up to ny to do a relative easy wreck dive (and good conditions.. verry little current and 10-15ft viz) on one of the sites we use for training.. I had him "lead" as if he was the instructor... after a few minutes it was clearly evident that he was VERY nervous.. at our agreed upon turn time I signaled to him its time to go back.. he immediately started to progress in the wrong direction.. If he was leading a group of divers we probably would have had a rescue on hand... even after I pointed him in the right direction, he failed to recognize where we were and swam right past the anchor line.. He also felt that a pony bottle was an unnecessary item, but he was glad when he had one to use (mandated by boat) after he was OOg..

I am not saying warm water diving can't be challenging (I have had some very hard warm water dives) but what is usually the exception is the norm off places like the UK and NE USA..

even the similiarites there for conditions the diving style is VERY different.. In the NE we all tie into the wreck and the diver MUST go up and down the anchor linem whereas in the UK most of the diving is done from ribs and its free ascent/deco.. These require different skill sets as well and experience is needed in the other enviroment before you can take responsibility there..

I agree entirely, all the wrecks I have dived in resort locations have had convenient shotlines and buoys tied to them.
Part of my DM training in the UK involved locating wrecks and putting a temporary shot line down on to them to assist customers in finding the wrecks, this is particularly important in the low viz, current situations often encountered.
How many proffesionals that have trained exclusively in tropical waters have this skill.
Just one more example that came to mind.

 

[InDaWata]

How many proffesionals that have trained exclusively in tropical waters have this skill.

How many proffesionals that have trained exclusively in tropical waters NEED this skill?

I once knew a kid in highschool who could do this trick where he could put his two hands toghether and slap himself in the forehead to make this really funny sound. Seriously, it was hilarious- but, it was a skill that didnt really get him anywhere.

Then theres the comedian, Mitch Hedberg- who was in an interview for his own TV show;

"When you're in Hollywood and you're a comedian, everybody wants you to do things besides comedy. They say, 'OK, you're a stand-up comedian -- can you act? Can you write? Write us a script?'... It's as though if I were a cook and I worked my ass off to become a good cook, they said, 'All right, you're a cook -- can you farm?'

 

[jkaterenchuk]

How many proffesionals that have trained exclusively in tropical waters NEED this skill?

I guess you have rather limited wreck diving experience.

The professionals on the MV Trident do this on every mark they stop over. They are based out of Koh Tao, Thailand and have discovered and run trips to several WW2 wrecks in the Gulf of Thailand 60-80M deep. I would call this warm water.

The wrecks with fixed bouys and shot lines are typically high volume recreational wrecks and this makes it easy for the boat to find the wreck, unload the divers and allow them to get back on board after their 30 min dive. I guess the concept of a hot drop onto a wreck in a current and a blue water ascent with drift deco would also be a concept that you might not think a dive professional would need. But this is often the exact method used off the coast of Florida since many of the wrecks are close to the Gulf Stream (which is known to be a little bit of a current).

I guess you missed the entire point that any dive profession is more well rounded if they have had additional experiences in other diving areas and conditions.

John

 

[InDaWata]

I guess you have rather limited wreck diving experience.

The professionals on the MV Trident do this on every mark they stop over. They are based out of Koh Tao, Thailand and have discovered and run trips to several WW2 wrecks in the Gulf of Thailand 60-80M deep. I would call this warm water.

I guess you missed the entire point that any dive profession is more well rounded if they have had additional experiences in other diving areas and conditions.

Nah, didnt miss any of that.
Why is there this condescending attitude that I've missed something? Thanks for that.

Youve MISSED the point by glossing over the question- How MANY dive pros NEED those skills?

MV Trident is a great op. Too bad something like 95% of all recreational divers will NEVER EVER come close to diving on these sites or in those conditions.

Should ALL dive pros know how to set up a shot line because there are some dudes out there doing deep tec diving?
And are the rest of us useless, unskilled, liabilities in whatever field we decide to follow because we dont have skills that are completely unrelated?

 

[jamiemac]

Nah, didnt miss any of that.


Youve MISSED the point by glossing over the question- How MANY dive pros NEED those skills?

MV Trident is a great op. Too bad something like 95% of all recreational divers will NEVER EVER come close to diving on these sites or in those conditions.

Should ALL dive pros know how to set up a shot line because there are some dudes out there doing deep tec diving?
And are the rest of us useless, unskilled, liabilities in whatever field we decide to follow because we dont have skills that are completely unrelated?

If I can put my bit in.

I don't think there's ever useless, un-related skills in diving, and especially organising dives. One day you'll use all of them.

There's so many variables in diving- sites, divers , weather being the main three- that there's never a right/wrong way to to do a dive. Obviously, on an internet forum, people are extremely dogmatic , that's the nature of these forums, but you can't afford to be when you dive or supervise dives

One of the best aspects of having divers visit us from all over the world is we learn from them, and some coldwater, nasty diving tecniquies work well here in sunny Thailand. I bet we've taught the rufty tufty boys some stuff too.

So within reason, I would suggest divers get as much experience in different areas, equipment, geograhically, boats, etc., it may not be obvious at first but every little bit will help you.

 

[penguintom]

Youve MISSED the point by glossing over the question- How MANY dive pros NEED those skills?

If they want to be capable of working in all conditions and at any location in the world, surely the answer is all of them.
For those that wish to work in your typical PADI shop in a tropical resort, taking divers on a 30/40 minute paddle in the same dive sites day in day out I suppose a more limited scope of experience is fine.
And I was not refering to tec diving, just your average recreational dive at a depth of say 25-40m, when we dive in the UK it is a skill we need to have for most dives we conduct.

 

[InDaWata]

If they want to be capable of working in all conditions and at any location in the world, surely the answer is all of them.

Sure, if theyre looking to dive there in a professional capacity. I agree 100%...

Ive never trained to dive in Canada, and probably will never dive there. I think that there are some skills (such as the aforementioned Dry Suit skills, shot lines) that are not transferable and wont help some of us at all...

Different strokes for different folks- I just dont like the absolute notion of saying more training is better universally, mentioned somewhere further up this thread. (?)

 

[jkaterenchuk]

I think that there are some skills (such as the aforementioned Dry Suit skills, shot lines) that are not transferable and wont help some of us at all...

Different strokes for different folks- I just dont like the absolute notion of saying more training is better universally, mentioned somewhere further up this thread. (?)

I would say your narrow perspective prevents you from seeing the broader picture. If you never take the training and get the experience then you do not know what you might be missing.

Lets take your statement that Drysuit skills are not useful or needed by a warm water dive professional in a recreational warm water setting.

Real situation. You get a very skinny female customer (you know the ones with 5% body fat) that is already wearing a 5mm full wetsuit in 85F water because she gets cold on the second dive and her teeth start to chatter. She is already wearing 20lbs of lead to get her down and as a result her trim and air usage in the water is terrible plus she complains of a sore back. As a dive professional that has been hired by her and her husband do you advise her...

a) Suck it up you wimp?
b) You need to buy a 7mm wetsuit, bigger weight belt and more lead. But sorry we do not have any 7mm's in our shop.
c) Maybe you should do some cardio exercises between dives to warm up

A viable response might be to talk to her about the pros and cons of using a tropical drysuit. However, if you have never had any experience diving in a drysuit you would never think about this as an option, would not know the pros and cons except what you read in your nice PADI Adventures in Diving manual (if you even read that sillys section since it for cold water divers) or you would give her a bunch of BS you pulled out of your ass.

On the other side of the coin if you had experience you could knowledgeably talk to her and potentially make her diving experience safer and more enjoyable in the future.

John