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Responsibility of the Intro Instructor

Discussion in 'Accidents and Incidents' started by MauiScubaSteve, Aug 23, 2009.

  1. K Mejean

    K Mejean NAUI Instructor

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Brandon Florida
    1,499
    9
    0
    QUOTE=halemano;4685311]Since there is still discussion here I will update some things.

    This diver did a resort intro with me a couple years ago, that included a pool session before a beach dive out to 35 fsw. She then read the first three chapters, completed the first three KR's and did CW 2 & 3 before doing OW dive #2. I did not offer her a Scuba Diver cert because she did not really dive by herself; I held her hand and physically kept her at depth and got her around the dive site. She does not fin strongly and has a head up posture while underwater; the only way she could get away from an instructor is uncontrolled ascent.[GOOGLE][/GOOGLE]

    I don't want to sound like an ass but don't you hold some responsibility here? I don't think you should have taken her to the bottom of anything other than a pool if she couldn't keep her bouyancy and her finning is that week. I understand you didn't actually have anything to do with the accident but unless you specifically told her that she needed further training and was not ready to dive or informed the second dive shop about her then I think a little of this falls on you. I'm sorry but thats how I see it. Now if you told her that she needed more training and were not given the opportunity to inform the shop then you are in the clear. I'm not trying to degrade you skills. I am just trying to look at the liability issue. Thats all.


    [GOOGLE][/GOOGLE]The company she had the incident dive with ONLY does DSD's with skills hanging on a line at the back of the boat in 20 fsw, then they dive on the same tank right away. The instructor was guiding out in front. she said she was unable to keep up with him. With her body position the harder she kicks the faster she goes up, and releasing air from the BC is probably not something she was ready to do. As I understand the PADI DSD the Instructor is responsible for the students buoyancy.[GOOGLE][/GOOGLE]

    This is sooooo wrong. Unfortunately I think it happens a lot more than any of us would like because these resorts push these people through thinking they will never dive again and then they go back at a later date thinking they know what they're doing. Then you get what we have here.

    [GOOGLE][/GOOGLE]The resort doctor she saw before flying only owned the phone diagnosis of viral sinus infection prior to the dive at the in person appointment with a prescription for antibiotics. An ENT on Oahu did not find any evidence of prior infection, verified by an ENT in Manhatan. She never filled the prescription from the resort doc. No rupture but there was expansion trauma.[GOOGLE][/GOOGLE]

    What do you expect from the Dr.? The odds are pretty good that he is not a diver and doesn't know a great deal about the issues that go along with diving. Thats why you call DAN!!!!!!!! They know about these things and can put you in touch with a Dr. that knows.


    [GOOGLE][/GOOGLE]When she called the dive op to let them know what she was going through the manager got very defensive and said he would call back after talking with the Instructor. It was actually the Instructor who called back with denials and accusations; all this before she even talked about refunds.[GOOGLE][/GOOGLE]

    I'm not surprised by this at all. Especially being a resort. Not only do they probably get a lot of people that are just looking to get their money back but I'm sure the first thing they thought of was the potential law suit and thats enough to make them start the denial.

    [GOOGLE][/GOOGLE]All I know at this point is that she says her ears still feel funny but they are getting better. I do not know if she took the issue further with the dive shop. I do know I can not recommend this dive shop for any training dives and since there are shops there that I do trust that means I will never recommend them for any diving at all, partly due the unprofessional post dive treatments.[GOOGLE][/GOOGLE]


    I would say she should consider herself to be very lucky and to get the proper training before she decides to get in the water again. I do agree with you that you should never recommend that shop again.
     
  2. kosap1

    kosap1 Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Florida
    35
    0
    0
    This just reminds me of why I became an instructor. It should not be about making money and the number of divers you certify. It should be about the quality of divers that you are certifying.

    Although I am aware that there are some instructors out there that accept situations such as this I hope that the majority of us know that this is not how things should be done.
     
  3. 2905luvsbubbles

    2905luvsbubbles Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Georgetown TX
    594
    8
    18
    I was taught in my instructor course that as the instructor, you are now responsible for your students. In a course like this, the instructor is definitely responsible for the safety of the student and did not achieve this
     
  4. Jim Lapenta

    Jim Lapenta Dive Shop

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Canonsburg, Pa
    17,052
    9,006
    113
    Some other issues, I have heard of instructors leading tours on checkouts from the front in Hawaii. I don't see this as good practice especially on DSD's. Was she even buddied up with another DSD person? I'm guessing not and if she was they most likely had no idea what they were supposed to do except follow the guy in front.

    Why was the instructor setting so fast of a pace? The slowest diver sets the pace of a group led dive. Period. End of story. Unless they are so unable to keep up that this in itself compromises the entire group. In which case the whole group goes up, the diver is let out of the water, made sure to be safe on shore or boat, and time and air permitting the dive then resumes.

    I would agree that this op is unsafe, unprofessional, and may look bad on you if you refer people to them. Better to do a proper DSD yourself and encourage them to come back to you. the behavior of the manager is not only unprofessional as well but downright childish. Is this an op that I should avoid referring people to. I'd say so. But that is tough without an ID.
     
  5. jviehe

    jviehe Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Tallahassee, FL
    3,091
    30
    48
    Keep in mind, the diver in the OP is possibly not representative of most divers. Very few people get hurt diving. Half of them are due to rapid ascent, but we are still talking about tiny numbers here, less than 1000 a year, according to DAN. The main issue might be complacency. You teach 100 DSDs, no problems, then one goes wrong.
     
  6. MauiScubaSteve

    MauiScubaSteve Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Olowalu, Maui
    4,766
    191
    0
    Depends on one's perspective. To me you sound like a perfect example of why DM's should not be allowed to post in I2I. Dude, in that job I did an average of 10 intro dives 250 yds out to 40' deep per week, so in just 5 months of that 18 month employment I led more intro dives than you have total dives lifetime.

    That's a pretty high horse your sitting on, but I wonder if you can actually ride. Do you know anything about PADI? As I said, I did not offer her PADI Scuba Diver after her 2nd and last training dive with me, because she did not dive on her own. Do you know what PADI Scuba Diver is?

    As for your view that I should have informed the second dive shop about her, we are talking about an intelligent educated woman who vacations all around the world; I am not her babysitter. By the way, the only person you degrade with posts like this is yourself!

    I am questioning your reading comprehension here. This woman chose to pursue certification after she went on the intro dive. If I was pushing her through thinking she would never dive again, I would have issued the PADI Scuba Diver cert and never thought of her again. In truth she will come back to see me to complete her OW training, because she knows I have what it takes.

    The resort doctor in question knows enough about diving to cover for the dive shops in her neck of the woods. She probably sees more dive related ear trauma than an ENT on Manhattan. Armchair quartebacking is really easy with 20/20 hindsight; the first I heard of the incident was 9:30 PM Hawaii time with a scheduled plane ride 14 hours away. The only real question was ear drum perforation which any Hawaii doctor can verify, and even if it's perforated flying is still going to happen.

    For starters, the operator in question is a local dive shop, not a resort. I have worked as a dive instructor here in the Islands for the last 8 years and only the lame operators would see "lots of people looking to get their money back." For the most part if the instructor/guide is doing their job there is no reason to get defensive. From a customer service standpoint the proper response to any customer complaint is calm understanding, and in this case a $200 dollar refund is way less damaging than negative reviews in the travel industry.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2009
  7. MauiScubaSteve

    MauiScubaSteve Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Olowalu, Maui
    4,766
    191
    0
    I know this is going to sound old, but if your posted stats are correct I led more intro dives at that resort than you have total lifetime dives. If you are a good pool instructor a very high percentage of your students are fine in the warm, clear, calm open water. The ones that are sketchy you keep close on the OW tour. We are talking about resorts where the cheapest garden view room is over $250 per night; if we were hurting/scaring guests we would not work there very long.

    Again I am questioning reading comprehension; as I stated in the op, this was a private intro!

    Big Island Divers
     
  8. K Mejean

    K Mejean NAUI Instructor

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Brandon Florida
    1,499
    9
    0
    Brother I was not trying to say anything bad about you. I just simply stated the way I saw it. I understand that I wasn't there. You posted up looking for opinions and I gave you mine. If you didn't want it then you shouldn't have posted.
    You don't anything about me and the classes I have worked with or the experience I have. Just so you know I only show my rereational dives in my stats. Not working one.
     
  9. MauiScubaSteve

    MauiScubaSteve Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Olowalu, Maui
    4,766
    191
    0
    My bad; I should have asked for knowledgeable opinions :mooner:
     
  10. K Mejean

    K Mejean NAUI Instructor

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Brandon Florida
    1,499
    9
    0
    [GOOGLE][/GOOGLE]
    Nice. Thats what you have taken this to. You didn't get the opinions you wanted so you have to resort to belittling my abilities and knowledge. That says volumes about you my friend.
    I will state this again for the last time. You posted up asking for opinions. No one made you do it. If you don't like the responses you got then I don't know what to tell you. You brought it on yourself.
    For the record.... this is posted in the accidents and incidents section. Not instructor to instructor.
    Now you have shown your true colors and I am done with you.
     

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