Should Shearwater add Air Integration to its computers?

[DevonDiver]

I doubt it, since in the tech world AI is usually viewed as useless at best, and additional points of failure at worst.

Amen to that!

I can imagine turning up at a dive center, analyzing 6 tanks of gas... then having to match transmitters to regulators.... and then programming the gasses.... and then matching the programmed gasses to transmitters... and one single mistake could seriously screw me up..... And then in-water... 6 transmitters to fail... 6 transmitters to get right on each gas switch....

.... and lets not even talk about sidemount.... or doing team protocols for air-sharing... or staging tanks...

AI turns the simple into the silly. In technical diving, simplicity stops us making fatal mistakes...

 

[kelemvor]

This happened with Liquivision. They had the 'king of the hill' computer before Shearwater.... the X1. A real trailblazer... Everyone salivated over it. Recreational divers bought them... and hated them.... too confusing. So Liquivision bowed to demand and created a range of recreational-focused computers. They have AI and everything... ohhhh... Technical divers wouldn't touch them though. Liquivision lost focus on their core market.... and now what? They rarely get a mention...

People might cite Shearwaters' excellent customer service. But if Shearwater sold their (tech) soul to scoop up rec computer market share...grew in size dramatically.... do you really think that customer service could be retained? I doubt it....

All I hear is Petrel, Petrel, Petrel.... then some waffle about screens and algorithms... LOL Do you even...?

When I made the decision to get new computers I went with shearwater after primarily comparing to liquidvision. For me, the deciding factor was that liquidvision has a reputation for poor customer service. I wasn't a diver yet when shearwater became a thing, but isn't it possible that liquidvision's customer service always sucked and that people flocked to a competitor when a reasonably capable competing product came to market?

I don't think decisions to tell customers "too bad" when something breaks have much to do with what type of computer you manufacture. Deserved or not, somehow liquidvision does have that reputation.

 

[drrich2]

So why specifically Petrel?

That's what I just don't get... Shearwater design technical instruments. The Petrel is king of the hill right now. So, obviously, recreational divers aspire to it. But, in reality, they don't like the functionality of a tech computer. So they want a dumbed down version, with added gadgets and gimmicks. That'd turn the Petrel into the SAME PRODUCT that other computer manufacturers are already making. But those computers aren't lauded by technical divers, because they are dumbed down and gadget ridden... So if Shearwater released a dumbed down version, it'd be slated by technical divers. It wouldn't be 'cool'.

This is interesting. Why - I'm told intuitive user interface, easy to navigate (2 button), very durable, long battery life in common AA batteries, reliable, good customer service backing. That it's used and lauded by high-end divers may be perceived as an indicator of high quality. That doesn't necessarily mean it's bought to look cool.

What you wrote calls the interface issue into question. I don't have a Petrel; I've got a Cobalt 1. I haven't used a LiquiVision Lynx. Or the newer Oceanic OLED wrist units. Can people who've used the Petrel & some of these other reputedly easy interface computers comment on how the interface experience compares?

This happened with Liquivision. They had the 'king of the hill' computer before Shearwater.... the X1. A real trailblazer... Everyone salivated over it. Recreational divers bought them... and hated them.... too confusing. So Liquivision bowed to demand and created a range of recreational-focused computers. They have AI and everything... ohhhh... Technical divers wouldn't touch them though. Liquivision lost focus on their core market.... and now what? They rarely get a mention...

The Lynx was eagerly awaited by rec. divers. Sounded great. Hopefully an intuitive interface, nice graphics, even a buddy locator function option. Awesome! But...

1.) Some people didn't like the tap interface IIRC.

2.) Per reports on the forum it ate batteries fast, and the tray for the rechargeable battery didn't look as sturdy as one might hope.

3.) Expensive, especially if you wanted you & buddy geared up to enable the buddy locator functionality.

I'm curious to see if the Omnix will be what the Lynx should've been. The battery life/situation issue has allegedly improved a lot.

If a company produces products perceived to be substandard, they're going to lose their leadership position. How much of a danger a stronger recreational market foray means for Shearwater I don't know.

Some Macintosh fans may have resented the attention the company lavished on the iPhone, but Apple's product line modest diversification (computer, phone, tablet, watch, sort of t.v. box, some peripherals) have strengthened the company.

Richard.

 

[CuzzA]

Why the Petrel?

For me the appeal about the Petrel is when my diving progresses toward technical diving I would like some control over the algorithm. Right now that is the only glaring advantage over some other options.

I've said this before in other threads.... take my Icon for example, the screen, graphics layout, intuitiveness, map feature, image feature and AI make it a better computer than the Petrel for recreational diving. But put the adjustable algorithm like the Petrel in the Icon, coupled with trimix capability and you have a computer that covers all aspects of diving, whether it's a rec dive or a tech dive. This from my biased opinion. And for the record I'm familiar with both computers. I've played around with the Petrel and read the manual.

---------- Post added January 10th, 2016 at 07:52 PM ----------

Btw, you wouldn't need AI on every gas for technical diving. Just put it on your bottom gas. It would be silly to do a 6 tank dive with AI. Too expensive. Keep the SPG on the tank with the AI. If it failed to connect, so what you still have your SPG. And then when you're doing a single tank recreational dive the next day you still have the luxury of AI.

Edit: Although, if you're severely narced on a 6 tank tech dive the AI may prevent you from dying by breathing the wrong gas. My icon won't let me switch to an inappropriate mix. That obviously doesn't stop you from breathing the wrong tank, but it would reinforce you to check to make sure you're breathing from the right one.

 

[DevonDiver]

For me the appeal about the Petrel is when my diving progresses toward technical diving I would like some control over the algorithm. Right now that is the only glaring advantage over some other options.

I've said this before in other threads.... take my Icon for example, the screen, graphics layout, intuitiveness, map feature, image feature and AI make it a better computer than the Petrel for recreational diving. But put the adjustable algorithm like the Petrel in the Icon, coupled with trimix capability and you have a computer that covers all aspects of diving, whether it's a rec dive or a tech dive. This from my biased opinion.

I don't disagree. Easier to stick some (open-source) algorithms into recreational computers than to stick recreational gadgets onto a technical computer...

Just so everyone is clear... the Petrel uses OPEN-SOURCE Buhlmann and VPM-B algorithms. ANY dive computer manufacturer could use those...

Btw, you wouldn't need AI on every gas for technical diving. Just put it on your bottom gas. It would be silly to do a 6 tank dive with AI.

Now you're getting the gist..... AI for tech is (with current technology and it's cost) SILLY.

As for how many tanks.... what if 4 tanks WERE bottom gas?

And one of the biggest arguments for AI is for gas tracking/logging etc. So that'd be scuppered if you didn't also track your deco gas. And of the gasses..... Deco gas would be the most important to track; given that any contingencies make deco time versus available gas a REALLY important calculation.

Too expensive.

Given that it's 100% unnecessary, yes.

Keep the SPG on the tank with the AI. If it failed to connect, so what you still have your SPG.

Holy Multitudes of Failure Points!!!

So now we have six batteries that can fail... six transmitters that might fail... or fail to sync.... and six spgs... and twelve hoses/attachments from our tanks...or 2 transmitters and 4 spgs....or 1 transmitter and 5 spgs... or... crap... I'm confused.

I see how AI makes technical diving so damned simple...

Edit: Although, if you're severely narced on a 6 tank tech dive the AI may prevent you from dying by breathing the wrong gas. My icon won't let me switch to an inappropriate mix.

Every tech agency has a standardized gas switch procedure. AI doesn't feature in them.

What, for instance, if you put the wrong transmitter on the wrong gas?

Or programmed the wrong transmitter to the wrong gas mix on the computer?

 

[drrich2]

Devon, I think the split between A.I. and rec. petrel concerns when this thread was founded may have confused the issue. I don't see anyone advocating pushing A.I. on tec. Divers. It would be implemented for rec. divers, probably as an.option since you could buy it without a transmitter.

Nobody here is trying to change how tec. divers dive.

 

[pedro_rj]

So why specifically Petrel?

That's what I just don't get... Shearwater design technical instruments. The Petrel is king of the hill right now. So, obviously, recreational divers aspire to it. But, in reality, they don't like the functionality of a tech computer. So they want a dumbed down version, with added gadgets and gimmicks. That'd turn the Petrel into the SAME PRODUCT that other computer manufacturers are already making. But those computers aren't lauded by technical divers, because they are dumbed down and gadget ridden... So if Shearwater released a dumbed down version, it'd be slated by technical divers. It wouldn't be 'cool'.

You're absolutely right here: doesn't need to be Shearwater. If anyone else would release a "perdix with AI", as simple and reliable, I would go for it. To my limited knowledge, there is no computer today that ticks all the boxes, which are really not that many: 1) simple and reliable, 2) can grow with me as I continue my dive education, 3) big screen, 4) AA battery, 5) bluetooth, 6) AI option.
(no, I will not include cheap ;P)

Just remember some people do tech dives but have other needs as well. Why would I buy a crappy computer with AI for shallow/photography and a good one for tech dives (and who knows, maybe trimix one day) if I could get it all in one package? Shearwater are not far of from that list above as only AI is lacking for what I, and I assume many photographers, do.

I get what you mean though, you don't want them to become yet another so-so option by overstretching human resources and going for the masses. I just don't think it's fair to say the AI discussion is the same as saying "please take a great piece of gear and dumb it down".

 

[CuzzA]

Good points. Again, I don't think AI has ton of value for a complex technical dive.

We always group divers on this board, but I have to believe a lot of "tech" guys do rec dives too. Andy, do you do a lot of recreational dives? There's a ton of beautiful dive locations throughout the world that are less than maximum recreational depths where putting yourself in deco is an unnecessary risk.

And let's also think about price (not sure if this was mentioned, I'll admit I only glanced through the thread earlier). I don't know how much more it would cost to add AI, but let's say the computer would now cost $50 or even $100 more with the option to buy the transmitter for $250. Is the tech guy going to bark at $50-$100. I mean tech gear ain't cheap, so what's another $50-$100. Is he going to look at a different option? Maybe, but as of right now the Petrel is the best option for a technical diver so it's unlikely.

So from a business perspective, assuming my numbers are half way accurate, you're not going to lose your existing customer base and you're now adding an additional customer base because of the AI feature. As mentioned earlier, I'm sure many spearfisherman, photographers, etc. would love to have a Petrel with AI. Especially those who may pursue technical diving or do a lot of different diving. Hell, with all the new business Shearwater could be getting, maybe they could actually lower the price from what they're charging now and that would make everyone happy.

 

[uncfnp]

James that is a good question and I think you are sincere in your interest. From my perspective, the additional cost is not the biggest factor but rather the addition of, to some, a useless feature in an otherwise fully functional computer. And its not like there aren't plenty of other dive computers out there for those that want AI.

And as far as the tech diver needing it for rec dives, remember, many of these divers could tell you what is in their tanks with fair accuracy with no need to see the SPG or AI. Heck, so could many experienced recreational divers. Time and practice just gives you a feel for the numbers. I think some agencies are even starting to incorporate this skill into their courses.

So in truth, when you are talking about an AI SW computer you are really talking abut a purely recreational computer. Hence some of the confusion between the threads.

 

[DevonDiver]

We always group divers on this board, but I have to believe a lot of "tech" guys do rec dives too. Andy, do you do a lot of recreational dives?

Not really, unless you count shallow water skills dives for tech courses.... but even then they're often 90 min+ and 3-4 cylinders.

I sometimes run recreational wreck or deep courses, but they aren't 'normal' really... and I'm still in sidemount.

There's a ton of beautiful dive locations throughout the world that are less than maximum recreational depths where putting yourself in deco is an unnecessary risk.

There is... but I kinda got bored of reefs and fish for the most part. Having worked in places like Sipidan, I took all the photos, ticked all the boxes. Most of my diving is for work anyway. Leisure dives are on wrecks... and the best wrecks are deep.

Anyway, there's no risk in deco if you approach it right. I see lots of recreational divers routinely causing far more risks on their dives....

Is the tech guy going to bark at $50-$100. I mean tech gear ain't cheap, so what's another $50-$100.

Well.... I spent more money on bolt-snaps and hardware than the average recreational diver spends on all their kit. That said, I don't pay money for something I don't need. I don't want what I don't need.

I don't subscribe to the "throwing money at dive kit" equation. I don't do brand names for the sake of it... I don't do gadgets.... and I don't do pointless expenses. I learned that over a 1/4 century diving. As a full-time professional... I go through gear very fast... especially inside the wrecks. I don't like spending lots of money on kit that inevitably gets crushed, scratched, dropped, smashed, grazed and frazzled. It's practical work equipment... I'm long past the days of salivating in dive shops.

So from a business perspective, assuming my numbers are half way accurate, you're not going to lose your existing customer base and you're now adding an additional customer base because of the AI feature.

I think a lot of people on the thread just don't "get" what's attractive to many technical divers about the Petrel. It's no-nonsense. It does EXACTLY what tech divers need... nothing more, nothing less. No convolutions, no complexity.

It's a wonderful piece of instrumentation that perfectly fits its need. It took real insight to put that together.... and it's something most other computer manufacturers fall short on by a nautical mile.

Technical divers appreciate that.

As mentioned earlier, I'm sure many spearfisherman, photographers, etc. would love to have a Petrel with AI.

They'd also appreciate one of the many, many existing computers with AI.... a clear display and large screen. So why do they need a Petrel.... a 'changed' Petrel actually?

Wanting Shearwater to change it's philosophy is like walking into your favorite Mom and Pops diner and insisting they start to sell Big Macs... it's contrary to what you love about the product int he first place. What you want is ultimately the ruination of what you loved in the first place.

Now.... if ever AI transmitters were miniaturized to the size of button gauges, became 100% reliable and dropped in cost to $25... then maybe. But for now, they're bulky failure-risk dildos sticking out of vulnerable 1st stages just waiting to blindside the tech diver when he's 2 hours from the surface.... for what? The 'ease' of reading gas pressure on your wrist. It means nothing, really. It's only a convenience thing.... which does not feature on the list of priorities for technical divers.