drrich2
Contributor
Welcome to Scuba Board! Hope you'll post some trip reports when you get some dive trips in.
Richard.
Richard.
Soon to be diver
- Thread starter Jacgul
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Bert van den Berg
Contributor
Congratulations. I hope that scuba diving will enrich your life as much as it has mine. One word of warning, if you have kids being a scuba diver is going to cost you a whole lot more than if you are single or child free 
Your kids ( and perhaps your wife/partner) will want in on the action.
Your kids ( and perhaps your wife/partner) will want in on the action.
drrich2
Contributor
That is a topic that's been debated on the forum and is more involved that meets the eye. I'll try to summarize from my recollection of past discussion talking points:
1.) The NAUI Master Scuba Diver course is a 'real' course and has a lot to teach you.
2.) The PADI Master Scuba Diver course is more like a 'scuba degree,' something you have the option to get by taking a number of courses, some required and some elective, to qualify for it. Some of those courses may teach you useful things.
3.) In the U.S. market, PADI and SSI seem to heavily dominate. Being new to diving, you may not've even heard of NAUI yet. So when people speak of the Master Scuba Diver course, they tend to have the PADI model in mind.
4.) Back when the PADI MSD cert. became available, there weren't nearly as many courses available as there are now. Back then, that cert. meant more in terms of having a broad formal coursework education as a recreational diver.
5.) Some people believe paying the extra fee to receive the MSD 'certification' is a waste of money and/or a vanity badge. Some believe people like setting and accomplishing goals and the 'trophies' that come with that, nobody's forcing anyone and it encourages people to get more training - so don't be a kill joy.
6.) Some object to the title as grandiose and a gross exaggeration of the abilities of some people who hold it. Some accept that as the price to pay for a title that's got marketing appeal.
7.) There are different paths people take aiming to get really good at recreational diving. Some pursue the Dive Master cert., which I'm told can help develop demonstration quality skills ought to exercise situational awareness (if you're guiding and observing a group), but that's not quite what it's for. Some pursue the MSD cert. Some take a course called GUE (Global Underwater Explorers) Primer or Fundamentals. Some dive a lot and benefit from personal mentoring.
Hopefully that's the TLDR version of some multi-page threads debating the topic. If I met the qualifications, I'd probably pay and get it. Just don't brag about it or act like it proves you're special, and do whatever you like.
Congratulations, Plongeur!!!
Nah, skip master, keep diving and maybe go for DM someday. But the key is just to dive, have fun and spend a **** ton of money on travel.
Nah, skip master, keep diving and maybe go for DM someday. But the key is just to dive, have fun and spend a **** ton of money on travel.
I'm not sure if we have NAUI in France, we do however have several comparable organisations reputed for a high training standard. Interestingly enough, we have a CSAM dive club on my base, however, as far as I know, they only do certifications to level 1, which is about the equivalent of PADI scuba diver. I'll have to look into it when they start up again, covid dependant.
mariosx
Contributor
I am also pretty new to the sport (less that 50 dives), so I would like to share shortly my personal experience, in some detail in case someone is interested:
I got my OW back in December 2019. Great timining, I know.
I was lucky enough to get pushed by a friend (GUE cavediver) to adopt a "DIR" system from day one, so I literally have never dive in a jacket or with regular octopus, rather back plate + wing and long hose. Note that my long-term goal is indeed in to getting in more "tec" stuff, such as shipwreck penetration etc, but I am one of the types that enjoys diving for the shake of it. I can enjoy dives even with zero visibility and a max depth or 20 feet.
30 dives latter, I was getting more experienced, but I started noticing a slow-down on my improvements. More importantly, I still had practically no idea on gas management, deco stops etc, and always a guide followed blindly was necessary for me to enjoy a dive although I was trying to be as independent as possible with my buddies. At the same time, I started noticing unsafe behavior and protocols or things that just didn't sit right with me from my buddies, DMs and ofc me. So I started thinking on my next steps to become a more competent diver, and especially diving buddy, instead of requiring constant babysitting.
After many many many discussions with the friend that pushed me towards "DIR", I was determined to go for AOW with the same instructor that I consider very competent, he was pushing me hard to go for the Fundamentals class of GUE, a class that I know is the most expensive and difficult to pass. The same guy was pushing me hard to get it failed the class 3 times (just for context). Nevertheless I listened to him and booked a class for last June (2021) with less than 40 dives in total. After a lot of reading and 4 VERY intense days of studying, practicing, diving, I tried for the first time in my life diving doubles and a canister light and got a recreational pass. I never considered myself a great or even good diver, so seriously if it was possible for me it has to be for the majority of the diving community.
Coming out of the Fundamentals excluding the new skills I learned such as diving doubles, using canister light, dsmb deployment, etc, I most importantly refined to a unbelievably high degree my most basic skills. In the first day I was able to hover completely still, without going up or down, front-back, left-right for the first time in my life. An important skill that I was trying to perfect since day one in the wrong way, and a skill that I didn't not see demonstrated by many diving professionals. Literally, even if I failed the class at the first day, I would be extremely happy and I would consederred my time and money well spent.
Then I got a lot more comfortable with multitasking, especially in conditions under a lot of stress, increased a lot my situational awareness, safe behavior. In 4 days I was transformed to a completely different diver, more safe, more competent, and expecially more relaxed while diving. The next 4 dives after GUE it was the first time I realised that actually you can have fun while diving without having to worry on how you will act in unpredictable conditions, without worrying about unsafe behavior from teamates and without having to follow blindly a guide. Especially, it provided a great community of awesome divers and people, and just by providing me with an objective model motivated me to start hitting the pool after 15 years. Please note that this is the experience from all people I know that have passed from the same process, and indeed seemed extremely weird before I experienced it myself.
At this point I have advcated to literally anybody I know and care, especially to other friends and buddies, to take a fundies class, even if they don't feel ready, even if they think they will fail, even if they do not want to do more extreme dives. I have already convinced most of them just by observing my change on skills and mentality.
(So GUE for some is a strange kind of "diving cult". I, personally, currently agree with all GUE procedures I have been demonstrated and I have critically challenge in front of my instructor and the mentality. I disagree with some minor things that I might not follow precicely in the future during some fun dives, but I respect them 100% especially while considerring the great goals of GUE as an organization. My point thiough is that even if you disagree with everything and you burn your C-card 5 minutes after it gets printed, or you just wait 3 years for it to expire, you will become a MUCH better diver as a fact. The only negative that came out of the whole thing, and still I am fight to surpass is that you will not longer enjoy watching random people scuba diving in front of your eyes or in videos. You just instantly point out mistakes, potential future issues, unsafe or purely destructive behavior, and personally I have to try a lot to just sit and enjoy. Due to that fact I have become more picky on my dive buddies, and I avoid as much as possible diving in large groups recreationally that causes some anxiety to be honest. I sometimes indeed miss that unsafe "fun" of blissful ignorance while diving I could enjoy with every diver, that I have exchange to a safe actual safe fun I share with still many divers)
Moving forward 2 months, I tried to dive close to a shipwreck with a dive shop of a very very popular diving agency at a south-east coast in the US. The people there did not allow me to go to a 70 feet dive because I was not AOW (just OW) and had no idea what GUE even was. That was an instant red flag for the entire group and should be for anybody truly involved with the community, but, long-story-short I didn't dive and I had to get AOW.
I got my AOW 2 weeks ago with less than 50 dives. I scheduled to take the class with my OW instructor that I trully respected even after my Fundies, she got an nasty ear infection so I got instructed by to other instructors, a relatively new one that he was actually pretty cool and chill, and although I learnt nothing I actually had some pretty fun dives with, and a "much more experienced". My 3 dives with the second "more experienced" instructor, were an uber cluster**** that somehow nobody got injured by pure lack and my personal intervention as a student.
To start while diving with both instructors I had better positioning in the water. I was able to hover in the water effortlessly while the instructors had to actually grap something nearby to just keep an acceptable trim and buoyancy. Again, I do not concider my self a super, or even very good diver. But for context I think that says a lot on what I have achieved in 4 days with GUE and what they have achieved following years of personal practice and many certifications from various agencies (both are diving rebreathers most of the time).
Both days we dove in a lake with maximum of 6 feet of visibility. In my class with the second "very experienced" instructor were 2 other awesome guys that were newly OW certified and for sure were doing much better job that myself a year ago. The "plan" was to do a deep dive at 130, he will lead, while I would be the second one and the other two less experienced guys would follow. At 60' I realized to my surprice that I was the ONLY one with a proper primary light (+ 2 backups) while the instructor had a small and not very powerful one while the students NOTHING. So I was forced practically to abandon the "plan" and stay at the back babysitting 2 inexperienced divers that were practically left alone. We lost the instructor 5 time in a 30 minutes dive, because he was not paying attention at the back. At one point, when we they were practicing their trim, one of the guys left to a random direction with no light, and I had to find him myself after swimming in the silt for 30 seconds straight. Checked his air and he had 600psi at 60 feet after 40 minutes, so I prepared to donate (I was diving with doubles and a stage so, not an issue I guess ). We return back and after we meet the instructor with the other guy I call the dive, we started ascenting he bails his stop and goes up although I told him that I my computer said that I have 2 minutes remaining. I hit the surface with the other guy following our stops and the first thing the instructor tells me was "Awesome dive guys, you rock! I saw you got him, nice catch.".
Now my point is that if it was not for the GUE Fundamentals with my expremely limited experience and knowledge before, I might also think that his comment was actually correct, like the other guys probaly thought. But due to just these 4 days of training I know why he was wrong and why we could end up with an serious accident down there, and I know that I would not be able to go against the original "plan", assess my instructor as best-case ignorant and unsafe in just 3 seconds, babysit his own students... as a student, practically lead the entire dive and counter any seriously unsafe thing he did, guarantee that everybody comes out safe. The next two dives had its own problems that would need 3 more post to even get into, but the fun fact is tht even the students were paying more attention to me than him. I was advocating for people to take the GUE-fundies even before this experience, but I have trully become more militant advocate no matter their opinion on the GUE "cult", their aspirations as divers (recreational vs techical), and their experience that could be very questionable as shown. I have also seen very competent non-GUE divers and instructors, but to me, looking also towards myself, the concistency produced by GUE seems unmatchable. Thus, especially if you are just starting diving, like I was, I could not recommend looking towards GUE more, even if you end up abandon some of the things of their system.
I got my OW back in December 2019. Great timining, I know.
I was lucky enough to get pushed by a friend (GUE cavediver) to adopt a "DIR" system from day one, so I literally have never dive in a jacket or with regular octopus, rather back plate + wing and long hose. Note that my long-term goal is indeed in to getting in more "tec" stuff, such as shipwreck penetration etc, but I am one of the types that enjoys diving for the shake of it. I can enjoy dives even with zero visibility and a max depth or 20 feet.
30 dives latter, I was getting more experienced, but I started noticing a slow-down on my improvements. More importantly, I still had practically no idea on gas management, deco stops etc, and always a guide followed blindly was necessary for me to enjoy a dive although I was trying to be as independent as possible with my buddies. At the same time, I started noticing unsafe behavior and protocols or things that just didn't sit right with me from my buddies, DMs and ofc me. So I started thinking on my next steps to become a more competent diver, and especially diving buddy, instead of requiring constant babysitting.
After many many many discussions with the friend that pushed me towards "DIR", I was determined to go for AOW with the same instructor that I consider very competent, he was pushing me hard to go for the Fundamentals class of GUE, a class that I know is the most expensive and difficult to pass. The same guy was pushing me hard to get it failed the class 3 times (just for context). Nevertheless I listened to him and booked a class for last June (2021) with less than 40 dives in total. After a lot of reading and 4 VERY intense days of studying, practicing, diving, I tried for the first time in my life diving doubles and a canister light and got a recreational pass. I never considered myself a great or even good diver, so seriously if it was possible for me it has to be for the majority of the diving community.
Coming out of the Fundamentals excluding the new skills I learned such as diving doubles, using canister light, dsmb deployment, etc, I most importantly refined to a unbelievably high degree my most basic skills. In the first day I was able to hover completely still, without going up or down, front-back, left-right for the first time in my life. An important skill that I was trying to perfect since day one in the wrong way, and a skill that I didn't not see demonstrated by many diving professionals. Literally, even if I failed the class at the first day, I would be extremely happy and I would consederred my time and money well spent.
Then I got a lot more comfortable with multitasking, especially in conditions under a lot of stress, increased a lot my situational awareness, safe behavior. In 4 days I was transformed to a completely different diver, more safe, more competent, and expecially more relaxed while diving. The next 4 dives after GUE it was the first time I realised that actually you can have fun while diving without having to worry on how you will act in unpredictable conditions, without worrying about unsafe behavior from teamates and without having to follow blindly a guide. Especially, it provided a great community of awesome divers and people, and just by providing me with an objective model motivated me to start hitting the pool after 15 years. Please note that this is the experience from all people I know that have passed from the same process, and indeed seemed extremely weird before I experienced it myself.
At this point I have advcated to literally anybody I know and care, especially to other friends and buddies, to take a fundies class, even if they don't feel ready, even if they think they will fail, even if they do not want to do more extreme dives. I have already convinced most of them just by observing my change on skills and mentality.
(So GUE for some is a strange kind of "diving cult". I, personally, currently agree with all GUE procedures I have been demonstrated and I have critically challenge in front of my instructor and the mentality. I disagree with some minor things that I might not follow precicely in the future during some fun dives, but I respect them 100% especially while considerring the great goals of GUE as an organization. My point thiough is that even if you disagree with everything and you burn your C-card 5 minutes after it gets printed, or you just wait 3 years for it to expire, you will become a MUCH better diver as a fact. The only negative that came out of the whole thing, and still I am fight to surpass is that you will not longer enjoy watching random people scuba diving in front of your eyes or in videos. You just instantly point out mistakes, potential future issues, unsafe or purely destructive behavior, and personally I have to try a lot to just sit and enjoy. Due to that fact I have become more picky on my dive buddies, and I avoid as much as possible diving in large groups recreationally that causes some anxiety to be honest. I sometimes indeed miss that unsafe "fun" of blissful ignorance while diving I could enjoy with every diver, that I have exchange to a safe actual safe fun I share with still many divers)
Moving forward 2 months, I tried to dive close to a shipwreck with a dive shop of a very very popular diving agency at a south-east coast in the US. The people there did not allow me to go to a 70 feet dive because I was not AOW (just OW) and had no idea what GUE even was. That was an instant red flag for the entire group and should be for anybody truly involved with the community, but, long-story-short I didn't dive and I had to get AOW.
I got my AOW 2 weeks ago with less than 50 dives. I scheduled to take the class with my OW instructor that I trully respected even after my Fundies, she got an nasty ear infection so I got instructed by to other instructors, a relatively new one that he was actually pretty cool and chill, and although I learnt nothing I actually had some pretty fun dives with, and a "much more experienced". My 3 dives with the second "more experienced" instructor, were an uber cluster**** that somehow nobody got injured by pure lack and my personal intervention as a student.
To start while diving with both instructors I had better positioning in the water. I was able to hover in the water effortlessly while the instructors had to actually grap something nearby to just keep an acceptable trim and buoyancy. Again, I do not concider my self a super, or even very good diver. But for context I think that says a lot on what I have achieved in 4 days with GUE and what they have achieved following years of personal practice and many certifications from various agencies (both are diving rebreathers most of the time).
Both days we dove in a lake with maximum of 6 feet of visibility. In my class with the second "very experienced" instructor were 2 other awesome guys that were newly OW certified and for sure were doing much better job that myself a year ago. The "plan" was to do a deep dive at 130, he will lead, while I would be the second one and the other two less experienced guys would follow. At 60' I realized to my surprice that I was the ONLY one with a proper primary light (+ 2 backups) while the instructor had a small and not very powerful one while the students NOTHING. So I was forced practically to abandon the "plan" and stay at the back babysitting 2 inexperienced divers that were practically left alone. We lost the instructor 5 time in a 30 minutes dive, because he was not paying attention at the back. At one point, when we they were practicing their trim, one of the guys left to a random direction with no light, and I had to find him myself after swimming in the silt for 30 seconds straight. Checked his air and he had 600psi at 60 feet after 40 minutes, so I prepared to donate (I was diving with doubles and a stage so, not an issue I guess
). We return back and after we meet the instructor with the other guy I call the dive, we started ascenting he bails his stop and goes up although I told him that I my computer said that I have 2 minutes remaining. I hit the surface with the other guy following our stops and the first thing the instructor tells me was "Awesome dive guys, you rock! I saw you got him, nice catch.".Now my point is that if it was not for the GUE Fundamentals with my expremely limited experience and knowledge before, I might also think that his comment was actually correct, like the other guys probaly thought. But due to just these 4 days of training I know why he was wrong and why we could end up with an serious accident down there, and I know that I would not be able to go against the original "plan", assess my instructor as best-case ignorant and unsafe in just 3 seconds, babysit his own students... as a student, practically lead the entire dive and counter any seriously unsafe thing he did, guarantee that everybody comes out safe. The next two dives had its own problems that would need 3 more post to even get into, but the fun fact is tht even the students were paying more attention to me than him. I was advocating for people to take the GUE-fundies even before this experience, but I have trully become more militant advocate no matter their opinion on the GUE "cult", their aspirations as divers (recreational vs techical), and their experience that could be very questionable as shown. I have also seen very competent non-GUE divers and instructors, but to me, looking also towards myself, the concistency produced by GUE seems unmatchable. Thus, especially if you are just starting diving, like I was, I could not recommend looking towards GUE more, even if you end up abandon some of the things of their system.
I do like your Avatar : 2º REP - "LEGIO PATRIA NOSTRA"
Like Boyle's Law Boyle's Law
Volume decreases like your bank balance.
Enjoy.
Like Boyle's Law Boyle's Law
Volume decreases like your bank balance.
Enjoy.
Jade Blue
Registered
Congrats I got certified last month! But unfortunately i cant dive until my middle ear issue subside!
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