Standardized Prices?

[GShockey]

Greetings,

I will only take three students at a time for a Fundamentals class but don't go away yet. I may have an idea....

Guy

 

[Karim Hamza]

Greetings all,

I have been reading this thread with some interest and up until now I have sat on the sidelines. It seems like the same points are raised, challenged and countered on a regular basis here on SB. I don't think this will ever stop but maybe we can do something interesting in this case. For the most part I have been encouraged by the mature level of discourse but there still seems to be several who comment about GUE and GUE dive training but to my knowledge have not taken any GUE training. This seems a little strange to me but in this case we might be able to address this. I have read several times how GUE training is expensive for multiple reasons including class fees, equipment requirements (if you don't have the right equipment,) etc., so I would propose to remove some of these impediments. I don't know you Dale, but I have read several of your posts and I know you live in Vancouver or the Vancouver area. I live and regularly teach on Vancouver Island. Lynne, I know personally (hi Lynne) but haven't seen for a while. Dale, I think it is time to correct you lack of GUE training I propose we coordinate a GUE Fundamentals class for you, Lynne and someone else. I will offer both of you this class and provide you with any or all additional equipment you may need to be able to take the class at no charge. We will need to find someone else and I would prefer someone who has participated in this thread or another diver who is "GUE curious". I will make the same offer to them.

There is one requirement for attending this class. You must agree to engage in an ongoing dialogue about the class, during the class (kind of like a blog thing) here on SB to keep everyone else in the loop. Lynne, I know you have already done Fundamentals but this may be a fun way for you to update yourself with current GUE protocols and initiatives etc. Maybe you can even talk Peter into attending Dale, you will have the opportunity to ask a zillion questions about GUE and GUE training and get the answers from a GUE instructor as opposed to the internet etc. At the very least you will be an informed critic at the end of the class Lynne, I think it will be interesting for you to participate with Dale because I believe that a group discussion between us all will be entirely interesting!

I realize that the students will have to find time in their schedules to attend but I will work with everyone to make the logistics as easy as possible. Maybe we can do it over two weekends or something like that. I will provide all the breathing gases etc., at no charge. The class will be here on Vancouver Island so you will have to travel but I hope that by removing as many of the other impediments as possible it will make it worthwhile. You will have to pay the GUE registration fee when you sign up for the class. It is not much and the money goes to support our Project Baseline initiatives around the world so I think it is a worthy cause.

So what do you say?

best,

Guy Shockey
GUE Instructor Trainer

My friend Guy Shockey has done it again. Brilliant offer. Lynne, Dale, and Ryan, you are going to have a wonderful class. I am looking forward to read your reports.

 

[WhiteSands]

It's not easy, the same way as it may not be easy for instructors of other agencies. There are plenty of people who needed to work hard and show excellent level to become instructors.
And is it a GUE-only thing to have spare kit for students? I see that all the time.

But you did touch an important reason, they were charged a lot, therefore they now charge a lot. And the new ones will have been charged a lot and therefore... I think GUE started purposely elitist and in some aspects it still remains so.

Some people also say the courses are expensive because of the amount of time the instructor spends with the students... In my cave courses I was 24h (minus toilet time ) with my instructor (TDI). The same happened when my girlfriend did cavern with IANTD instructor.

After comparing equivalent levels of GUE training with other agencies, I do not even think GUE's courses are that expensive.
It only looks expensive because they don't break it up into multiple stages.

GUE's Tech 1 course is $1,500 I believe.

To be certified to an equivalent level in TDI you need to do:

Advanced Nitrox - $700
Decompression Procedures - $750
TDI Extended Range - $1,200 (not sure if this is required)
TDI Entry Level Trimix - $1,500
Total: $4,150 ($2,950 without extended range)

If I did not have the time to do all these courses at one sitting (which most people won't), I have to figure in travelling and hotel costs for multiple trips, and multiple days.

It's the same story with IANTD.

 

[PfcAJ]

I just checked out IANTD UK's website (one of the first that came up) and the pre-req for Normoxic Trimix is just Advanced Nitrox.

An IANTD Normoxic ticket gets you 'certified' to 200ft.

Past that is their full trimix course. That's a 300ft cert.

I do not advocate that type of progression. I fully favor the slower GUE route (a 170ft cert, followed by a 250ft 'light hypoxic trimix', and then a 300ft ticket after some experience). But for someone looking to get the most 'bang for their buck', its tough to argue that you get more out of the GUE class relative to the $.

There's a bunch of hidden costs with upper level GUE classes too. Travel (there aren't many Tech instructors in the world) is a huge one. I live in Florida within a 2hr drive from GUE HQ and I ended up in Italy for my tech 2 class. The other student was from Finland (!!) and we flew the instructor in from Singapore (!!!!!!). Dem dollaz was spent. I was hemorrhaging money that week. Awesome class? Yes. Spendy? Oh yeah. Would I do it again? Yes.

Do I believe the GUE courses to be the best? Absolutely. I started my cave training with NAUI then went and retrained with GUE. But I certainly 'get' the appeal of a cheaper route. If you really want to see some difference in prices, take a look at the cost of cave instruction. The variance is bananas around here.

But, as I said before, my gripe is mostly with the cost of the entry level class.

 

[DaleC]

Welcome to SB Ryan, looking forward to meeting and doing some diving together.
Lynne, sorry to hear about your hand - no fun I sent you a PM with my info. I know you're dealing with hand stuff but let me know if you didn't get it and I'll resend.

 

[gusser17]

Greetings all,

I have been reading this thread with some interest and up until now I have sat on the sidelines. It seems like the same points are raised, challenged and countered on a regular basis here on SB. I don't think this will ever stop but maybe we can do something interesting in this case. For the most part I have been encouraged by the mature level of discourse but there still seems to be several who comment about GUE and GUE dive training but to my knowledge have not taken any GUE training. This seems a little strange to me but in this case we might be able to address this. I have read several times how GUE training is expensive for multiple reasons including class fees, equipment requirements (if you don't have the right equipment,) etc., so I would propose to remove some of these impediments. I don't know you Dale, but I have read several of your posts and I know you live in Vancouver or the Vancouver area. I live and regularly teach on Vancouver Island. Lynne, I know personally (hi Lynne) but haven't seen for a while. Dale, I think it is time to correct you lack of GUE training I propose we coordinate a GUE Fundamentals class for you, Lynne and someone else. I will offer both of you this class and provide you with any or all additional equipment you may need to be able to take the class at no charge. We will need to find someone else and I would prefer someone who has participated in this thread or another diver who is "GUE curious". I will make the same offer to them.

There is one requirement for attending this class. You must agree to engage in an ongoing dialogue about the class, during the class (kind of like a blog thing) here on SB to keep everyone else in the loop. Lynne, I know you have already done Fundamentals but this may be a fun way for you to update yourself with current GUE protocols and initiatives etc. Maybe you can even talk Peter into attending Dale, you will have the opportunity to ask a zillion questions about GUE and GUE training and get the answers from a GUE instructor as opposed to the internet etc. At the very least you will be an informed critic at the end of the class Lynne, I think it will be interesting for you to participate with Dale because I believe that a group discussion between us all will be entirely interesting!

I realize that the students will have to find time in their schedules to attend but I will work with everyone to make the logistics as easy as possible. Maybe we can do it over two weekends or something like that. I will provide all the breathing gases etc., at no charge. The class will be here on Vancouver Island so you will have to travel but I hope that by removing as many of the other impediments as possible it will make it worthwhile. You will have to pay the GUE registration fee when you sign up for the class. It is not much and the money goes to support our Project Baseline initiatives around the world so I think it is a worthy cause.

So what do you say?

best,

Guy Shockey
GUE Instructor Trainer

Guy, this is really an incredible offer. Contrary to the elitism often referred to on SB when discussing GUE, my experience with GUE divers has been that most are super excited to introduce others to what they do and are willing to put hours into mentoring interested/curious divers. While consistent with this theme, Guy is taking it to a whole new level. DaleC I'm confident that you are going to love this class. I think anyone who is thoughtful enough to think about its merits to the extent that you have done will ultimately get a lot out of it and ultimately see the value. Have a great time, i'm looking forward to reading the reports.

When discussing why more people don't take fundamentals, I think one of the biggest obstacles is simply exposure. Few recreational divers have ever heard of GUE (or DIR) and most have never considered the fact that there may be a better way to dive. SB members are a small subpopulation of divers, unrepresentative of the majority. Since many here are more experienced divers, we often hear the "obviously I'd get a tech pass" comment. Efforts like Guy's to expose more people to what GUE has to offer will go a long way. Enjoy.

 

[DaleC]

I also don't think there is any question about the quality of GUE training. It has always appeared to be of a high calibre. What is knocked about, at least by Lynne and I (and some others), is how applicable that training is to the greater recreational world, whether other approaches might also work, how much of the system might be used/not used outside the DIR team paradigm, and how to best transfer those good parts to the larger diving population. It's really not a bad debate/discussion as I also believe mainstream diving lacks real safety (as it exists). It has always been a question of how to get there.

But I'm not going to rehash that here. As you say, Guy has extended a great idea/opportunity that I'm very curious about and I want to let that play out. I think most of us would agree that bashing and rebashing old ideas/arguments isn't productive and perhaps this will be one unique way to change the discussion and generate interest in creating a better overall diving culture.

 

[Peter Guy]

Oh Darn -- I don't get to take Fundies again. I guess I'll be seeing you soon.

Guy -- need someone to video?

 

[mathauck0814]

After comparing equivalent levels of GUE training with other agencies, I do not even think GUE's courses are that expensive.
It only looks expensive because they don't break it up into multiple stages.

GUE's Tech 1 course is $1,500 I believe.

To be certified to an equivalent level in TDI you need to do:

Advanced Nitrox - $700
Decompression Procedures - $750
TDI Extended Range - $1,200 (not sure if this is required)
TDI Entry Level Trimix - $1,500
Total: $4,150 ($2,950 without extended range)

If I did not have the time to do all these courses at one sitting (which most people won't), I have to figure in travelling and hotel costs for multiple trips, and multiple days.

It's the same story with IANTD.

Emphasis mine.

This is a twisted and opportunistic take. Extended Range and decompression procedures are not required to go from Advanced Nitrox to Normoxic Trimix in IANTD's program. There are a lot of courses you can elect to take.

 

[Belce]

Very interesting and something to look forward to. I took this course and did not pass, I will soon take it again and pass. When I first took it, my thoughts going in were that I would do well as I thought myself a good, competent and confident diver. And even though I did not pass that time, I came out of this course a better, more competent and confident diver. A year later when I was thinking back on my diving experience I could see a huge change in the quality of my diving and most importantly the pleasure in diving.