Tech through PADI or TDI?

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John,

You did not answer my question on the number of deaths required to make a change.

I forgot to mention one other filtering factor. Andy's suggestion only relates to dives being led by a professional. How many of the dives you looked at were led by a professional? I would venture to say nearly none.

And thank you for agreeing with me that the report by DAN is not applicable to the rest of the world.


IAndy says that dozens of people are dying every year while being led beyond their training depths by DMs. Take a look through the accidents and incidents section of ScubaBoard and see how many such incidents you find. There will no doubt be a couple--but dozens a year?

Do you really feel that is so relevant to the discussion? We know of one in Coron that probably won't be reported to DAN. There are also probably others because reports of people dying convinces people to either not dive or to not go to that location. So there is a huge incentive to not report or under report diving deaths.

ISo you will then argue that those dozens a year are indeed taking place--they just aren't being reported. And you know they must be there because...because......because....

Please do not misquote me. I am only saying lives will be saved. Until data is made available, we will never know how many people could be saved approximately. Surely you would agree that at least one would have been saved. Now whether that is worth it to you, I cannot say. For me it is.

You brought up the issue of dive ops in Cozumel. Well, I suspect that if all dive ops refused to take people on dives deeper than for which they were certified, a lot more people would get AOW certifications.
 
@wetb4igetinthewater and @DevonDiver where do you want this to end?

Is it just for when the DM/Ins is being paid? Or do you want them to take it upon themselves to check peoples cards before diving with their friends? What if people have different qualifications? Kosta if someone comes to you with TDI AN/DP and has a tech pass at GUE Fundamentals are you going to refuse them to do a bit of light penetration because they have not got a basic wreck card?

Now when people are either too inexperienced to know better - then you have a duty to stop them doing silly things. And I think anyone with morals would agree with that. However the idea we need to demand people pass a course before we deem them capable of diving It would lead to:

- No carrying an SMB until you have got the card.
- No using a lift bag until they had done search and recovery.
- No using a drysuit until they had done a course.

I've never done a course in any of these areas. And I manage to do all of them without a problem. If I was made to pay to do a course in them I'd have probably not bothered diving anymore.
 
@wetb4igetinthewater and @DevonDiver where do you want this to end?

Quite simple and should be obvious from my statement. When they are guiding.

Or do you want them to take it upon themselves to check peoples cards before diving with their friends?

Do you always ask such ridiculous questions? Not relevant. However, if I take a friend who is open water certified to say a depth of 180 fsw and they die, their family is probably going to go after me.

What if people have different qualifications? Kosta if someone comes to you with TDI AN/DP and has a tech pass at GUE Fundamentals are you going to refuse them to do a bit of light penetration because they have not got a basic wreck card?

A bit of light penetration is not the same thing as inside a wreck, far from the light zone (I'm using the death in Coron as an example).

I'm talking about depth and overheads. Are you equipped and have any relevant training? No? Then too bad.

Now when people are either too inexperienced to know better - then you have a duty to stop them doing silly things. And I think anyone with morals would agree with that.

Do you think DM's should take AOW divers with around 100 dives deep inside a wreck at 121 feet in single AL80's, no dive lights, and not running a line?

That's what I'm getting at here. I'm not talking about taking an OW diver to 70 feet, but I am talking about taking an OW diver to 160 feet, taking inexperienced AOW divers inside wrecks at depth beyond their certification in single tanks, that sort of thing.

However the idea we need to demand people pass a course before we deem them capable of diving It would lead to:

- No carrying an SMB until you have got the card.
It is part of OW. You are an instructor, you know that. But anyway, not the same thing as taking people to overheads or depths for which they are not qualified to do.

- No using a lift bag until they had done search and recovery.
How often do you see people using lift bags while being guided? But anyway, not the same thing as taking people to overheads or depths for which they are not qualified to do.

- No using a drysuit until they had done a course.

Try renting a dry suit without certification. But anyway, not the same thing as taking people to overheads or depths for which they are not qualified to do.

I've never done a course in any of these areas. And I manage to do all of them without a problem. If I was made to pay to do a course in them I'd have probably not bothered diving anymore.

That's nice.
 
Please do not misquote me. I am only saying lives will be saved. Until data is made available, we will never know how many people could be saved approximately. Surely you would agree that at least one would have been saved. Now whether that is worth it to you, I cannot say. For me it is.
You could save tens of thousands of lives by banning cars. Then you could save more thousands by banning trucks. Then you could work on the hundreds of lives lost to accidents with trains by banning trains. And the the dozens killed in plane crashes by banning aircraft.

After all, if it saves just one life?
 
You could save tens of thousands of lives by banning cars. Then you could save more thousands by banning trucks. Then you could work on the hundreds of lives lost to accidents with trains by banning trains. And the the dozens killed in plane crashes by banning aircraft.

After all, if it saves just one life?

False equivalence.
 
Do you always ask such ridiculous questions? Not relevant. However, if I take a friend who is open water certified to say a depth of 180 fsw and they die, their family is probably going to go after me.

I'm stepping out of this one.

If you want to discuss this we should start a thread in the instructor area. Us arguing here over what standards should and shouldn't be - doesn't reflect well on any of us. In my opinion.
 
where do you want this to end?

Is it just for when the DM/Ins is being paid? Or do you want them to take it upon themselves to check peoples cards before diving with their friends? What if people have different qualifications?

Again.. 3rd time to explain..

I suggested that agencies imposed standards within membership agreements. That is primarily for dive centres, but also for individual pro members.

1) Agencies already do this in regards to training activities; in respect to the membership requirements to abide by agency course standards.

2) Customer expectations when walking into an agency 'branded' dive centre are that the agency plays an active or regulatory role in ensuring safe diving practices are upheld by their member dive centre and its staff.

3) No such agency regulation exists beyond the strict parameters of training programmes only... and the broad need to comply with vague documents like 'Safe Diving Practices', or to show 'professionalism' etc.

4) Taking newly qualified OW divers on very technical level wreck penetrations at 38m, or taking newly qualified OW divers to 48m in a Blue Hole, ISN'T specifically prohibited in "Safe Diving Practices", so activities like this happen frequently.

5) When fatalities occur in non-training dive activities, agencies will still suspend memberships etc, on the grounds of negligence or lack of professionalism.

6) This is entirely REACTIVE; applying sanction after the fact. Whereas stipulating more specific standards in membership agreements would be PROACTIVE; applying guidance before the fact. In short, prevention is better than cure.. especially when people get hurt or die.

7) I'm talking about agency originated; self-regulation via membership requirements. For most agencies it'd cover professional membership activities in a professional capacity. In the same way that occupational regulations and laws also cover 'professional' divers, in regions where those laws exist.

8) Nonetheless, agency membership standards DO already exist that require professional, responsible and diligent behaviour at ALL times. This already covers scenarios like a DM diving with friends or even an instructor posting in online forums. It just doesn't cover specific details of what constitutes adhering to "Safe Diving Practices".

9) The industry has never had a problem with the concept of equivalent qualifications.

10) Agencies already demand that members (DMs, Instructors, centres, resorts and boats) adhere to "Safe Diving Practices".

11) However, they've singularly failed to define those practices specifically enough, which has led to gross abuses.

Note: This is true especially in areas where local or national regulations, or lack of litigation risk, do nothing to curtail diving centres and staff acting in a blatantly unsafe manner.

12) The vast overwhelming majority of dives conducted (especially under paid supervision of agency members) occur in 'holiday' locations that aren't effectively state regulated or where civil litigation is problematic. i.e. developing and 3rd world nations in tropical regions.

Note: most 1st world / developed countries have capable non-diving specific regulatory bodies which assure customer safety in every instance where an individual or business provides ANY service for divers. i.e. H&S at Work agencies, business regulation bodies, customer safety organisations etc..

In short - In geographical areas where there is no externally provided regulation and in occupational areas where diving agencies provide no regulation....THERE IS NO REGULATION.

Professionally guided diving activities remain a FREE-FOR-ALL, where individual 'pros' and dive centres are expected to self-regulate to ensure diver safety .... but have time and again proven they cannot, or will not do that prudently or acceptably, for commercial and other reasons.


13) There is no agency QA process that covers blatantly unsafe practices beyond the strict parameters of training activities. Guided diving is literally a FREE-FOR-ALL.

14) In a nutshell, the RSTC mandates minimum standards in respect to diving training. This forces agency standards compliance with diving training only. There is no version of RSTC that covers non-training functions of the dive industry.

15) Outside of the parameters of diving training, agencies have shown zero initiative to assure diver safety through professional member regulation or quality assurance. Basically, when not forced to do so, the agencies haven't done anything.

16) Agencies have not mandated or defined any specific minimum standards or operating codes to be applied for guided diving, and other non-training activities, carried out by their individual and business members for the public.
 
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... we should start a thread in the instructor area. Us arguing here over what standards should and shouldn't be - doesn't reflect well on any of us.

I disagree. There's a lack of public / consumer transparency about dive industry issues.

Why do we 'pros' have to scuttle off to dark corners and whisper furtively about the problems we observe in the industry?

And maintain some illusion for public consumption?

The public knows there are problems in the dive industry. We solve nothing by closing ranks and avoiding public debate on those problems.

All that attitude achieves is to make the public cynical and distrusting of agencies and their members. We see ample evidence for those consumer attitudes, even here frequently / constantly on Scubaboard.

IMHO, what makes us look BAD is exactly that tendency to hide our debate from the public.
 
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We are in a thread answering a man's question and I'm reading about lift bags, industry trends and accidents. I get we all have our favorite hobby horses, debates and opinions... but must they splatter all across any thread no matter it's topic or how unhelpful to the the op the discussion has become?

Labelling this off topic and unpleasant discussion as "transparency" is ironic while it simply looks like petty bickering, posturing and word games from here. I have experienced better things from my fellow professionals then this thread is demonstrating.

If you'd like to debate, kindly attempt the clarity of speech, dignity of careful listening and respect for the audience that's fitting for industry leaders. Also, I would recommend a specific thread and a clear topic so the rest of us don't need to watch this public trainwreck unless we'd like to.

Regretfully,
Cameron

P.s. if someone would prefer this as PM material I'll do a quick edit of my post. I have respect for you guys as divers and trainers and frankly I expected greater professionalism seeing those involved.
 
We are in a thread answering a man's question and I'm reading about lift bags, industry trends and accidents. I get we all have our favorite hobby horses, debates and opinions... but must they splatter all across any thread no matter it's topic or how unhelpful to the the op the discussion has become?

Labelling this off topic and unpleasant discussion as "transparency" is ironic while it simply looks like petty bickering, posturing and word games from here. I have experienced better things from my fellow professionals then this thread is demonstrating.

If you'd like to debate, kindly attempt the clarity of speech, dignity of careful listening and respect for the audience that's fitting for industry leaders. Also, I would recommend a specific thread and a clear topic so the rest of us don't need to watch this public trainwreck unless we'd like to.

Regretfully,
Cameron

P.s. if someone would prefer this as PM material I'll do a quick edit of my post. I have respect for you guys as divers and trainers and frankly I expected greater professionalism seeing those involved.

Cameron,

Point taken. I will make a concerted effort to spawn a new thread for the OTT (off topic topic).

This certainly has not been my first such transgression, but I will do my best to make it my last.

Kosta
 
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