Tech through PADI or TDI?

[KevinNM]

That absolutely makes sense. As of right now I'd like to go as far as Deco Procedures, but the possibilities are endless. I'm in the DFW area. I was thinking of possibly doing the training in the Cozumel/Playa del Carmen area. From the tiny bit of researching I've done, the tech training around my parts are quite limited.

Limited, but not impossible. I know Mer ran a tech 1 course in Austin at the start of the month, I think using Lake Travis.

 

[sea_ledford]

If you want to do tech training in Texas, you'll end up at Travis at some point, no where else has water deep enough. I'm currently working through my first several TDI tech classes as an instructor with students I know are solid divers and will give me strong feedback, but Harvey has thrown a huge wrench into that whole process.

I know of a few instructors in the Houston area that I am unfamiliar with their training quality, so would just be passing on names, and I know one or two in Austin that are solid. I don't know the Dallas scene very well, so no help there.

But all these people are of different agencies (PADI, TDI, and IANTD as far as I know). Unless you want to be an instructor for one of them, no reason to stick with a particular agency. Hell, I'm a TDI instructor and the only TDI course I've taken was my instructor course with Steve Lewis! I have tech level certs from IANTD, PADI, NAUI, and NSS-CDS. It's all just alphabet soup.

-Chris

 

[boulderjohn]

Generally, the PADI tec program offers you many "baby steps" while the TDI program gives you a large chunk of ability relatively soon.

As someone certified to teach both TDI and PADI, I would say that, if anything, it is just the opposite.

Although PADI does offer an intro to tech class, most people go right through The Tec 40, 45, and 50 sequence. Those three courses are really designed to be steps in one course, and they start teaching the decompression theory immediately in Tec 40. When you are done with Tec 40, you are certified to do do 10 minutes of decompression using EANx 50 without going deeper than recreational depths. In Tec 45, the instruction on decompression theory and other aspects of technical diving continues, and when you are done, you are certified to do decompression with any oxygen percentage for any length of time up to a depth of 45 meters/150 feet. When you get to Tec 50, pretty much all the theory stuff is done already--the focus is on issues related to deeper diving and using two deco gases.

it is hard to describe the TDI program, because although it is technically designed in a sequence, the instructor does not have to teach it in that sequence. The instructor is allowed to take the Intro to Tech-Advanced Nitrox-Decompression Procedures skill sequence and mix them up for a student who has committed to take all the classes, and when that happens, the instructor can cut down the number of required dives. If the courses were taken in sequence, the student would not get any decompression theory at all in the first two courses--all of that is in the last course, Decompression Procedures. If the students were to take the courses in order, then the first two sets of divs would really be pretty minimal, in terms of skills--the dive skills are really piled on in the Decompression Procedures course. After completing the first two courses, the student would not be certified to do any decompression at all. Most people do not take the courses in sequence, though. What actually happens in the courses depends upon the judgment of the instructor, but regardless of those decisions, the student is not certified for decompression diving at any depth until Decompression Procedures is completed.

When TDI Decompression Procedures is completed, the diver's certification is approximately the same as Tec 45, meaning he or she is certified to use one decompression gas. Students have to continue beyond Decompression Procedures to be able to sue two deco gases.

I have certainly not done a word count, but my wild guess that the PADI courses materials have about twice as much written material

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

As someone certified to teach both TDI and PADI, I would say that, if anything, it is just the opposite.

Although PADI does offer an intro to tech class, most people go right through The Tec 40, 45, and 50 sequence. Those three courses are really designed to be steps in one course, and they start teaching the decompression theory immediately in Tec 40. When you are done with Tec 40, you are certified to do do 10 minutes of decompression using EANx 50 without going deeper than recreational depths. In Tec 45, the instruction on decompression theory and other aspects of technical diving continues, and when you are done, you are certified to do decompression with any oxygen percentage for any length of time up to a depth of 45 meters/150 feet. When you get to Tec 50, pretty much all the theory stuff is done already--the focus is on issues related to deeper diving and using two deco gases.

it is hard to describe the TDI program, because although it is technically designed in a sequence, the instructor does not have to teach it in that sequence. The instructor is allowed to take the Intro to Tech-Advanced Nitrox-Decompression Procedures skill sequence and mix them up for a student who has committed to take all the classes, and when that happens, the instructor can cut down the number of required dives. If the courses were taken in sequence, the student would not get any decompression theory at all in the first two courses--all of that is in the last course, Decompression Procedures. If the students were to take the courses in order, then the first two sets of divs would really be pretty minimal, in terms of skills--the dive skills are really piled on in the Decompression Procedures course. After completing the first two courses, the student would not be certified to do any decompression at all. Most people do not take the courses in sequence, though. What actually happens in the courses depends upon the judgment of the instructor, but regardless of those decisions, the student is not certified for decompression diving at any depth until Decompression Procedures is completed.

John,

Please correct any misinformation that I state, but this is my understanding. The PADI tec deep series is 12 dives. Combined TDI AN/DP is 6 dives, and then one can take trimix.

Now I may be overlooking some important subtleties with depth and such, but with the trimix course, 4 dives, down to 200 feet. That seems to be a lot faster than the PADI roadmap.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

My first impression was that I liked the PSAI text more than TDI and I liked the TDI texts more than PADI. If I was to select an agency based on texts alone it would be PSAI. It is not flashy like a glamor magazine but it comes with very useful things like US Navy decompression tables, Nitrox tables etc.

Out of PADI and TDI, I have seen more committed technical instructors teaching through TDI than PADI. PADI technical instructors tend to be recreational instructors or shop owners who also maintain PADI tech certification just in case that once in a blue moon customer comes in and wants to learn tec. Serious technical instructors (John Chatterton, Steve Lewis, Mark Powell) whose bread and butter depends on teaching technical diving tend to affiliate themselves with TDI.

There are some very good instructors like Boulder John and Andy who are teaching through PADI and they have built a very good reputation but big names in PADI tend to be fewer.

Then of course there is UTD and GUE and I am not getting into those.

 

[stuartv]

That absolutely makes sense. As of right now I'd like to go as far as Deco Procedures, but the possibilities are endless. I'm in the DFW area. I was thinking of possibly doing the training in the Cozumel/Playa del Carmen area. From the tiny bit of researching I've done, the tech training around my parts are quite limited.

I'm only certified at the TDI Helitrox level, so take what I say for what it's worth.

I think the biggest step up is going from recreational to the first certification that includes deco. After that, the increments of skills is much smaller from one certification to the next.

So, for your first tech training, I would suggest doing it close to home, so you can take plenty of time. Don't go somewhere far away with a plan to get it all done in a a few days.

 

[decompression]

John, what I meant was this........
If you want to do Deco dives to 150' PADI requires Adv OW, EANX, Deep, Rescue, Tec 40 and Tec 45 courses. Lots of bite sized steps.....great for a slow progression to tech.

If you want to do Deco dives to 150' with TDI, it requires Advance Adventure Diver or Advanced and then Deco Procedues. So a jump is made from advanced diver right to Deco, what I consider a "large" amount of skills.

So, my point being, if you have the skills, aptitude and desire then Deco Procedures would be a good fit. If you are more focused on taking your time, learning in smaller chunks and could use more instruction, then the PADI path would be a good fit........make sense?

 

[DevonDiver]

Anyone focusing on the quickest route through tech training is probably not someone who should be tech diving, or instructing.

Plastic cards don't give you a capacity to avoid or survive the worst case scenarios at depth... only effective in-water training time provides that.

When it comes to training, nothing supercedes volume/time of effective in-water practice, for attaining the necessary results.

Although the student's starting competency and the instructor's teaching efficiency play major roles in the speed at which reliable competencies can develop within a given training interface.

Hopelessly inexperienced tech instructors
+
Students with flawed or non-existent fundamentals/prerequisites
+
Bare minimum, extremely short training interface

..... and people want to debate which agency is "quickest and best" at getting X, Y or Z c-cards?

 

[KenGordon]

John, what I meant was this........
If you want to do Deco dives to 150' PADI requires Adv OW, EANX, Deep, Tec 40 and Tec 45 courses. Lots of bite sized steps.....great for a slow progression to tech.

If you want to do Deco dives to 150' with TDI, it requires Advance Adventure Diver or Advanced and then Deco Procedues. So a jump is made from advanced diver right to Deco, what I consider a "large" amount of skills.

So, my point being, if you have the skills, aptitude and desire then Deco Procedures would be a good fit. If you are more focused on taking your time, learning in smaller chunks and could use more instruction, then the PADI path would be a good fit........make sense?

For TDI AN/DP you need a basic Nitrox course as a prerequisite. You would also be well advised to have done something like Intro to Tech to have an idea about the use of a twinset, shutdowns and all that.

Gentle progression is a key element of training. Both these agencies understand that and have courses that build on the one before. There is no magic that means one set of course notes will get a given random diver to an advanced level faster than another set of course notes.

 

[Diver0001]

If there were no differences between agencies, then why are there more than one? The whole "it's the instructor, not the agency" is just scuba board political correctness - that provides instructors an avenue to feel good about themselves when they commiserate about how they had to correct deficiencies in another instructor's student from their same agency!

If you really care about this topic, research the history. Ask yourself how padi came to offer, in this case, technical training. Did they design it? Or did they bad mouth technical for decades, and then when they thought they were missing out on business - did they hire an IT from another agency to share the other agency's program with them - and then customize the other agency's program to padi's rigid training method?

Then compare and contrast that to, in this case, tdi. what is tdi's history? does it predate that of padi's in technical? Does tdi's ideology on gas choices, buddies, and ethics, etc. match yours?

When you finish your training, and actually want go out to dive at that level - and are looking for buddies, or operators to take you to sites for that level - do you think either certification will be equally respected and allow you to immediately dive at that level? Try calling operators / guides / etc. and ask which training programs they are more likely to accept for advanced dives sight unseen - I would be interested in the responses.

May I ask why you are choosing to limit your technical training to only padi or tdi?

@Black Cat Ignore the above post. It is totally wrong.

First of all. The history is utterly unimportant to a student who wants to learn now. What the student needs to know is how it works NOW. What materials does the student get, how is the training organized, what skills to they learn, etc. The suggestion that PADI (sigxbill is talking about PADI) is incapable of designing technical training because they were opposed to the idea in the past is utterly idiotic.

Secondly, it IS the instructor. Within a given system there is room for vast VAST quality differences in the delivery of exactly the same course. We complain about this all the time and this phenomenon is not limited to recreational training. I've seen a lot of training being given, including technical training, and if someone tells you that the instructor doesn't matter then their agenda must be to talk down an agency with sweeping generalizations because the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT aspect in getting good training is to find a good instructor for two reasons. (1) because of the training, obviously and (2) because his other students are going to be potential buddies. Trust me on this. Finding a good instructor is priority 1-99, at priority #100 you can look at the alphabet soup.

Third, the importance of "image" that sigxbill is talking about is all in his head. When I choose a technical buddy I dive with them first and make a couple of dives to "test drive" them before doing anything really risky. Everyone I know does this in exactly the same way. No technical diver I've ever met will just jump in and make a substantial dive with an "instabuddy". The papers do not matter to actual technical divers outside of certain circles and a certain amount of arrogance that does exist in the diving world. This is what sigxbill is trying to say to you and this arrogance is the motivating theme of his entire post. If you're main priority is to look good on paper then go ahead and do that but when it comes to finding a buddy you're still going to need to prove yourself in the water because that's the only thing that is going to matter to a potential buddy. Respect, in this sense, is *earned* not something that is printed on your c-card.

R..