The "other" end of the DIR question

[gj62]

Many were solo lobster hunting, while other's were bragging about going to 165' on air, while yet some other's decided that diving without a BC is the manly thing to do. In short, this is a fairly representative sample of a typical open boat in So Cal. All of those idea's described above are ideas that I have rejected in the interest of increasing my safety margins. Moreover, I used to deep air, solo dive all the time so in essence I have used the "situation at hand" and learned from my previous mistakes. In my view, those ideas increase risk, increase stress and reduce safety and thus by extension reduce the amount of fun that I have diving, so why would I dive with any of those divers to learn from them?

I guess if you have a small comfort zone, you need to stay safely within it.

The majority of my diving these days is done ad-hoc on boats, including CA (used to lead trips on Conception/Truth quite often). While I've certainly run across the types of divers you describe above (including an odd bird that was burying his guage to get the deepest reading), I've never felt that this was a great threat to my personal safety (especially someone else soloing), except that I share the planet with these fools. I've certainly declined to buddy again with certain folks, mainly due to personality, more than technique differences.

Lastly, most of these folks described above were ignoring whatever training/education they had in order to do what they wanted - that's not a good thing whether you are PADI, GUE, etc...

My guess is that there are a number of divers on this board who are not DIR with whom I think you'd be comfortable and would not unduly create stress in your dive. It would be a shame if you didn't dive with them because they don't use a long hose on a reef dive...

 

[Diver0001]

As a principal of both the certification agency, and the company that is the primary (but not sole) source of equipment required for such certification, the bias I am referring to should be clear to anyone. If I was in charge of the EPA, would you accept it if I were in charge of Exxon too? I agree that he is upfront about his participation, but please don't pretend that it removes the issue of bias.

GJ,

You're right, of course. There is a conflict of interest. But then again.......who cares! GUE (small guy on the block) offers rock-solid training and Halcyon (small guy on the block) offers rock-solid gear. So I don't see the problem. I would see a problem with a merger of PADI and ScubaPro but then we're talking in a much different scale. GUE/Halcyon are a niche by comparison so any objection can only be ideological. By the way, how did you feel when Microsoft got off the hook for anti-trust? There are indeed large and dangerous monopolies in the world but GUE/Halcyon isn't one of them. Let's keep it in perspective.

R..

 

[gj62]

This is funny. I always saw it that the GUE guys came up with their way of diving, and when they couldn't find anyone to provide them the gear they wanted, Halcyon was born.

No, it pretty much all existed beforehand, so you would not be correct in this view...

I don't really see how it's a rational argument to say that JJ is doing you a disservice by selling gear at Halcyon that meets the standards GUE sets. You can always dive of other stuff. You don't have to be DIR. Sometimes I feel this whole issue is a sour grapes thing. "Mike is diving different than me. I know mine is the best, so I have to beat on Mike for not doing it MY way."

I tell you, the more I hear people bash the DIR way, the more I look closely at the situation, and the more I like what I read. I guess being ex-army, I can respect there being a specific standard. Some people can prefer to be more flexible.

Oh well. Only a few more months until my Fundies class. I hope.

If you read my posts - I am most specifically not bashing the DIR way. My original statements were to the effect that DIR certainly has a time and place, but it does not add any appreciable value (IMO) to non-technical diving situations.

Also, with regards to JJ, my point is that he is in a position where bias will naturally occur. I never said he was purposefully exercising intentional bias, only that by being in that position, bias would naturally occur. Again, it is why judges recuse themselves and board members do not hold competing stocks - because regardless of intent, bias occurs - it's human nature.

Folks, this isn't rocket science, especially in a recreational setting. The original question was why we chose to not pursue DIR - I think there were a number of well thought-out, accurate reasons. A few people have perhaps mis-stated a small number of facts on both sides. What is clear to me is that there remains a firm, palpable philosophy within the organization and the divers themselves that follow it that there is no other way than the DIR way to dive. Frankly, that's a shame and I hope that GUE continues to benefit the small number of technically oriented divers without a large impact on the overall recreational population.

 

[gj62]

GJ,

You're right, of course. There is a conflict of interest. But then again.......who cares! GUE (small guy on the block) offers rock-solid training and Halcyon (small guy on the block) offers rock-solid gear. So I don't see the problem. I would see a problem with a merger of PADI and ScubaPro but then we're talking in a much different scale. GUE/Halcyon are a niche by comparison so any objection can only be ideological. By the way, how did you feel when Microsoft got off the hook for anti-trust? There are indeed large and dangerous monopolies in the world but GUE/Halcyon isn't one of them. Let's keep it in perspective.

R..

I make alot of money from MSFT - go baby, go! Before you flame me, I will publicly state that yes, I am biased towards profit in my business... Whew - now I'm upfront, just like JJ...

Of course, the above (while basically true) is humor, before this spins off into meaningless drivel...

BTW, I did not accuse, nor infer, that there was a monopoly - only that there was bias - they are very different concepts that have nothing to do with one another.

 

[Diver0001]

<snip>

BTW, I did not accuse, nor infer, that there was a monopoly - only that there was bias - they are very different concepts that have nothing to do with one another.

Indeed. I stand corrected and I agree. There is clear bias. Claiming otherwise is absurd. But it still raises the question: what's the problem?

R..

 

[Wijbrandus]

Hey, GJ, I wasn't referring to your postings specifically. Just the stuff in general.

I do have a question on this though, and maybe you or MHK can illuminate me on it.

What is clear to me is that there remains a firm, palpable philosophy within the organization and the divers themselves that follow it that there is no other way than the DIR way to dive. Frankly, that's a shame and I hope that GUE continues to benefit the small number of technically oriented divers without a large impact on the overall recreational population.

Does the DIR way mean you can't dive with anyone else?

I think every philosophy has it's fanatics, and those are the ones you really want to avoid. However, the few DIR types I've run across have not struck me as representing this impression you have. Most of them just want to dive, do their thing, and be left alone. It's the other people that hassle them, and start the whole thing going.

I'll be the first to admit my experience is limited, but I have yet to be approached by a DIR diver and be told how I'm going to die. Most of them just smile at me and chat the day away. They only talk about their methods when I ask.

I think for pure rec diving, DIR is just another tool that some will find appropriate, and some won't. It's not a death sentence if you don't use a bp/w, or configure Hogarthian. However, I can see why some people would advocate doing so. I think anything that teaches you to respect your environment, and become a safer more reliable diver, can't be all bad. The DIR way seems to promote these things, though it isn't the only one, for sure.

Anyway, I'll step out now, since I am just a rookie, but that's been my impression so far.

 

[gj62]

Does the DIR way mean you can't dive with anyone else?

Yes, I believe that for most DIR divers, it does. Here is what MHK (a GUE Instructor and DIR proponent) said in this thread:

What those of us that have adopted DIR have determined is that the diving protocols associated with DIR principles are at the level we accept and any deviation poses, for us, and unncessary and unacceptable level of increased risk.

 

[MHK]

Hey, GJ, I wasn't referring to your postings specifically. Just the stuff in general.

I do have a question on this though, and maybe you or MHK can illuminate me on it.



Does the DIR way mean you can't dive with anyone else


I'll be the first to admit my experience is limited, but I have yet to be approached by a DIR diver and be told how I'm going to die.

I think this answer varies from one diver to the next. This thread has been somewhat interesting and somehwat frustrating in some respects. By that I mean, we have said on atleast 5 seperate occasions that we respect anyone's right to dive anyway they see fit, but yet some still conclude that we say that DIR is the only way to dive. It's that sort of misinformation campaign that continues to perpetuate the self-fulfilling prophecy. I'll try to say this one more time so we are clear

WE DON'T CARE HOW ANYONE ELSE DIVES AND WE FULLY RECOGNIZE ALTERNATIVE DIVING STYLES OTHER THEN DIR

As much as there are those that are on the other side of the coin that would prefer to dive in whatever alternative style that they choose, there are those of us that dive advocating the unified team approach adopted by practicioner's of DIR, and just "hooking up" with someone that doesn't share the same attention to team diving, or subscribe to the like-minded style and gear alter's the style that we choose to dive in so we avoid putting ourselves in that position. It isn't meant to be dogmatic but to dive DIR-like with someone not into the style is like being partially pregnant. Either you adopt it or you don't and it's important to note that DIR is holostic in nature and it requires that you and your team mate are on the same page, putting an incompatible piece into the puzzle at the last minute compromises the safety of the whole team. So to answer the question, no I wouldn't do it. I dive to have fun, and my level of fun increases when I know that I'm diving with someone who has put in the time to practice the skills, when I'm diving with someone who rejects idea's like deep air or same ocean buddy system or ad hoc gear configurations, or weird breathing mixtures. For me, that takes away from my enjoyment because I'm now diving in a broken team and it takes away from my fun.

Other then that I'm not sure how else to explain it.

Regards

 

[Boogie711]

Yes, I believe that for most DIR divers, it does.

GJ - with respect, you're starting to remind me of Genesis or something. Someone who clearly isn't DIR should probably best answer those sorts of questions, don't you think?

It's obvious you disagree with the system and mentality - which is your right. So leave it alone already. I believe any of your points have been made, and my concern is that if you continue to poke and prod you're just going to let this escalate into something which benefits nobody.

"Volunteering" to answer questions like that clearly shows YOUR bias, and serves no benefit.

 

[gj62]

MHK - I tried to be very careful when I indicated that what you said was that *you*, a DIR diver, would not dive with a non-DIR diver - I think I do have that correct, right?

So my reply to Wijbrandus stating that he was wrong was also correct -

Most DIR divers would elect to not dive, if the only choice was a non-DIR buddy... That is definitely the impression I get, at least when I read posts on this board. Out on the blue - who knows...