The "other" end of the DIR question

[HammerNoMore]

My question is; how are the GUE/DIR gear placement requirements not applicable to warm-water reef diving?

I think you missunderstood the original point. He was not saying that a hog style rig is in any way bad in a rec environment, just not 100% necissary. If you never have any intention of penetrating anything, you probably don't need a 7' hose. You can dive safely without DIR gear in a rec environment, you can dive safely in DIR gear in most any environment.

 

[Diver0001]

To H2Andy,
I doubt that Albion was refering to you or MHK specificly. Many of us non-DIR certified people are hastled to a level of nothing short of beratement from others (the zealots) who carry a mythical flag of supposed superiority. Only the actual zealots act in this manner, you and MHK do not. I prefer to hear from the two of you any day over a few others from the DIR community.
Matthew

Actually, for the record, a lot of DIR divers experience the same thing in reverse. If you look back through this thread at all the negative remarks you'll find the overwhelming majority are aimed AT DIR divers. In fact without checking I'd venture a guess that ALL the negative comments in this thread were aimed AT DIR divers.

I'll give you the point that there are ego trippers and arrogant gits in the DIR camp. They've had some p*ss poor leadership examples to follow so somehow one can sort of understand the reasons even if the behaviours were unacceptable.... However; I've seen a strong progression toward normal (or normalisation of) discussion about/with DIR. You should have seen it when the GUE was just getting set up.....The slap-downs were almost biblical in proportion relative to today.

That is to say that approaching the topic level-headed and setting a tone of respect is a two way street......we ALL need to back off on the negativity and set a new tone going forward. You appear to be cynical of negative DIR divers.......but doesn't that put you in the same boat?

R..

 

[OneBrightGator]

I'd rather not get into a PADI -v- GUE discussion, my sense is that horse has been beaten to death

Not discussing it in your own threads would go a long way to accomplishing this.

Ben

 

[gj62]

We believe that by teaching, and promoting, consistency from the open water level you utilize one of the basic educational teaching principles of the Law of Primacy...

Ouch! Careful there - the law of primacy states that whatever if first learned is learned best - guess GUE won't be accepting anyone who has dove before without adherence to the DIR principles. Perhaps you meant the Law of Exercise, which states that whatever is most often repeated is the most likely response to a repeated condition.

We respect anyone's right to dive anyway they see fit, but we prefer to stay with those that share our ideology.

As I said, I have no problem with the principles of diving you lay out, but they are dogmatic, since they admittedly allow for only a single method of rigging. Frankly, you remove any free will from intelligent people that *can* learn.

I won't even get into the subcurrent in the statment "we prefer to stay with those that share our ideology" - wow...

In other words, rather then me justifying the fact that Halcyon provides gear that is consistent with DIR principles, would care to identify any item that JJ hadn't previously used and/or recommended prior to his dual role at Halcyon and GUE?

It doesn't matter that he's used the gear before - what matters is that the actions of his companies will be influenced by *him*. Hey, if any normal person could remain truly unbiased, judges would not recuse themselves on certain cases...

My point that I was trying to raise was that it's hypocritical of those that suggest that GUE is so dogmatic when the largest agency in the world is equally, if not more so dogmatic, but yet is free from the criticism. I was just pointing out the double standard.

There's got to be a smiley in there somewhere, right? PADI is free from citicism? On this board? Anywhere? ROTFLMAO

Lastly, James G said it right to Kalvyn in that the DIR rig is not necessary in OW diving - not that it was not suited for it.

 

[MHK]

Ouch! Careful there - the law of primacy states that whatever if first learned is learned best - guess GUE won't be accepting anyone who has dove before without adherence to the DIR principles. Perhaps you meant the Law of Exercise, which states that whatever is most often repeated is the most likely response to a repeated condition.
As I said, I have no problem with the principles of diving you lay out, but they are dogmatic, since they admittedly allow for only a single method of rigging.

We will have our open water program released soon, as many of us having been beta testing it and I'm told that JJ and the Board of Directors are close to signing off on the final product. But that being said, my comments respecting the Law of Primacy where in response to your comments about open water students and the lack of "need" for DIR tennants. Let's just chalk this one up to agreeing to disagree. We believe that it's best to teach students from Day 1 the philosophy that we subscribe to, that of course isn't to say that later they can't learn it, but what we've found from experience is that if they are taught the DIR philosophy from Day 1 there is much less to "un"-learn.

I won't even get into the subcurrent in the statment "we prefer to stay with those that share our ideology" - wow...
It doesn't matter that he's used the gear before - what matters is that the actions of his companies will be influenced by *him*. Hey, if any normal person could remain truly unbiased, judges would not recuse themselves on certain cases...

I'm not sure what biases you refer to.. In other words, his "biases" such as you use the term are that he believes in the product he manufacturer's and it's consistent with his core diving ideology. A bias would be if that he didn't believe in the product, but then adapted the product or the DIR diving philosophy to sell equipment. There isn't a shred of evidence, other then cyberspace innuendo, that JJ has compromised anything in the DIR philosophy to expand his role at Halcyon. I see NOTHING that is biased or conflicting because the two compliment each other, everything is publicly disclosed and there is no effort whatsoever to hide the fact that he has a dual capacity. We'll let everyone judge for themselves whether or not they think JJ somehow or another is skewing the DIR ideology just to sell Halcyon.

Lastly, James G said it right to Kalvyn in that the DIR rig is not necessary in OW diving - not that it was not suited for it.

"Necessary" is such a subject term that we could spend all day debating it. The point isn't whether it's "necessary", the point is does it reduce risk, reduce stress and increase safety? Those of us that have adopted the DIR philosophy believe strongly that it does, but we respect everyone's right to do whatever they want, which is why I stated in subtext ;-), that we just prefer to dive with those divers that share the same like-minded approach. In short, we believe that it's safer and more efficent, why would you begrudge anyone for limiting their diving partners to those that are commited to a safer and more efficient diving ideology?

Regards,

Michael Kane

 

[gj62]

We believe that it's best to teach students from Day 1 the philosophy that we subscribe to, that of course isn't to say that later they can't learn it, but what we've found from experience is that if they are taught the DIR philosophy from Day 1 there is much less to "un"-learn.

Why "unlearn" it at all? Why not just adapt to the situation at hand and use *all* of your background and education, rather than just a single, admittedly dogmatic philosophy? Do you really believe that outside concepts and techniques are a serious threat to your safety? You may just learn something new, too...

I'm not sure what biases you refer to...

As a principal of both the certification agency, and the company that is the primary (but not sole) source of equipment required for such certification, the bias I am referring to should be clear to anyone. If I was in charge of the EPA, would you accept it if I were in charge of Exxon too? I agree that he is upfront about his participation, but please don't pretend that it removes the issue of bias.

In short, we believe that it's safer and more efficent, why would you begrudge anyone for limiting their diving partners to those that are commited to a safer and more efficient diving ideology?

The statistics overwhelming prove that you are at a much greater risk driving to the dive boat, than having even a new diver as your buddy. Or do you only drive to dive sites with DIR divers - and what is the DIR training for driving? :54: Yes, this is tongue-in-cheek humor, but your statement about your safety choices is laughable for most OW rec diving, which is what was being discussed...

 

[MHK]

Why "unlearn" it at all? Why not just adapt to the situation at hand and use *all* of your background and education, rather than just a single, admittedly dogmatic philosophy? Do you really believe that outside concepts and techniques are a serious threat to your safety?

I believe that many are. For example, I was on a boat in So Cal 2 weeks ago, it was a commercial trip that had about 30 divers on the trip. Many were solo lobster hunting, while other's were bragging about going to 165' on air, while yet some other's decided that diving without a BC is the manly thing to do. In short, this is a fairly representative sample of a typical open boat in So Cal. All of those idea's described above are ideas that I have rejected in the interest of increasing my safety margins. Moreover, I used to deep air, solo dive all the time so in essence I have used the "situation at hand" and learned from my previous mistakes. In my view, those ideas increase risk, increase stress and reduce safety and thus by extension reduce the amount of fun that I have diving, so why would I dive with any of those divers to learn from them?

As a principal of both the certification agency, and the company that is the primary (but not sole) source of equipment required for such certification, the bias I am referring to should be clear to anyone. If I was in charge of the EPA, would you accept it if I were in charge of Exxon too? I agree that he is upfront about his participation, but please don't pretend that it removes the issue of bias.[\quote]

I disagree with you on this point, and I suspect further dialogue on the matter is pointless since we both have a different point of view. I suggest that anyone that thinks that JJ has been unduly influenced by his dual role should neither purchase a Halcyon product nor should they sign up for a GUE class..

Hope that helps..

Regards

Michael Kane

 

[Damselfish]

I believe that many are. For example, I was on a boat in So Cal 2 weeks ago, it was a commercial trip that had about 30 divers on the trip. Many were solo lobster hunting, while other's were bragging about going to 165' on air, while yet some other's decided that diving without a BC is the manly thing to do. In short, this is a fairly representative sample of a typical open boat in So Cal. All of those idea's described above are ideas that I have rejected in the interest of increasing my safety margins. Moreover, I used to deep air, solo dive all the time so in essence I have used the "situation at hand" and learned from my previous mistakes. In my view, those ideas increase risk, increase stress and reduce safety and thus by extension reduce the amount of fun that I have diving, so why would I dive with any of those divers to learn from them?

Sure many practices are a threat to safety, but many aren't. You've specifically listed examples of unsafe practices, and it's easy to list many more, but that hardly proves there are no other safe diving practices.

 

[MHK]

Sure many practices are a threat to safety, but many aren't. You've specifically listed examples of unsafe practices, and it's easy to list many more, but that hardly proves there are no other safe diving practices.

The larger point I was trying to point out is that if you asked the guys on the boat whether or not they thought the diving protocols I listed above were unsafe they would all tell you that they weren't. Some even go so far as to suggest that diving solo is safer since they don't have to worry about their buddy getting them in trouble. While some other's have publicly stated that adding a BC to your equipment is an increased failure point.

The point being is that everyone must judge for themselves what risks are acceptable to them. Getting into a debate about what is "safe" -v- "unsafe" will vary from one diver to the next, from one region to the next and from one agency to the next. What those of us that have adopted DIR have determined is that the diving protocols associated with DIR principles are at the level we accept and any deviation poses, for us, and unncessary and unacceptable level of increased risk. As I noted, everyone is free to access their own risk levels, but you must accept our right to dive as we see fit, just as we accept your right to dive as you see fit.

Regards

Michael Kane

 

[Wijbrandus]

This is funny. I always saw it that the GUE guys came up with their way of diving, and when they couldn't find anyone to provide them the gear they wanted, Halcyon was born. It's the old story of "if you don't like it, do it yourself and see if you can do it better." They didn't like what was out there, so they built themselves a better mousetrap.

I don't really see how it's a rational argument to say that JJ is doing you a disservice by selling gear at Halcyon that meets the standards GUE sets. You can always dive of other stuff. You don't have to be DIR. Sometimes I feel this whole issue is a sour grapes thing. "Mike is diving different than me. I know mine is the best, so I have to beat on Mike for not doing it MY way."

I tell you, the more I hear people bash the DIR way, the more I look closely at the situation, and the more I like what I read. I guess being ex-army, I can respect there being a specific standard. Some people can prefer to be more flexible.

Oh well. Only a few more months until my Fundies class. I hope.