The "other" end of the DIR question

[MHK]

This thread, coupled with the other thread on the DIR forum, has made for some pretty interesting reading. Thanks to the participants for keeping the flames down, but it's surprising to me at this late date that the impression still exists that in order to be DIR you must outfit yourself in Halcyon gear. That is simply a falsehood of epidemic proportions. At the end of this post I'll repost an ad hoc equipment list that I've posted often and please note how little, if any, Halcyon gear is "required".

A couple of other points that I thought I'd attempt to explain is the notion of how inflexible the gear and gear placement is. Some have suggested in this thread that it's about some type of violation of personal freedoms or personal preferences. The point behind standardization is too allow the diver to think "less", not "more". Conceptually speaking, if an emergency happens, particularly if it happens in a silt-out or limited visibility situation, I can help my buddy more easily because his equipment is configured exactly like mine. I don't have to rely on the quick buddy check that may, or may not, have been done before the dive nor do I need to rely on memory as to where his knife may be, or where his "octo" is stowed. By promoting consistency amongst the team reduces stress in an emergecny situation, it's isn't promoted because DIR likes to be dogmatic..

I also note that someone in this thread made mention of the PADI 5 star requirement that the shop only teach PADI classes and the relationship to GUE training. We have been through this in great detail with PADI, and various PADI 5 star shops that have requested that we offer a DIR-F class. Prior to the DIR-F class becoming a "certification" based class, ie; prior to July 1, 2003 PADI did in fact allow us to teach at 5 star facilities because the classes were non-certification, workshop based classes. Subsequent to July 1, 2003 when GUE went to the "certification" based DIR-F classes PADI has specifically advised several shops that we were going to teach at that they risked loosing their 5 star status if they allowed us to teach at their facility. I have for the longest time felt some level of hypocrsy from those that suggest that GUE is inflexible but yet the largest agency in the world holds hostage it's highest rating and, associated promotional value, if the shop teaches anything other then PADI.

In any event this has been an educational thread, and I welcome the discussion and will be happy to answer any questions relating to WHY we do what we do, because I suspect when the WHY's are actually known, that much of the misinformation that you see on various scuba forums are quickly corrected.

As promised here is the recommended gear list. Also on the www.wkpp.org George Irvine lists his equipment configuration and I think you'll see that the notion that in order to be DIR you must be completed outfitted in Halcyon is an erroneous assumption.


DUI TLS 350 drysuit or virtually any shell suit
DUI C-4 thermal garment or Diving Concepts stretch C-4
Aquatic Hood
Harvey’s Neoprene Gloves (although some in the colder waters use the dry gloves)
Scuba Pro Jet Fins (Turtle fins in the alternative)
Tusa Mask
Sea Elite manifolds
Highland Millworks Bands
Akona knife
PST or Luxfer cylinders
Barry Miller HID primary light
Barry Miller Scout lights (backup)
Suunto compass
Uwatec bottom timer
Apex or Scuba Pro reg’s
Any brass SPG will suffice
If using a computer, a suunto

And then of course the BP and wings. I believe Halcyon is the best quality but as we have said often, as long as the wings are not bondage wings, most will suffice.

Hope this helps.

Michael Kane

 

[H2Andy]

the point is that in some non DIR threads people ask for open advice and at suddenly a DIR zealot jumps in and makes a statement that doing it any other way is dangerous.

why call them "zealots"? they just believe that not doing something a particular way is dangerous, and are vocal about their opinion, as you are of yours.

i belive diving caves without proper instruction and equipment is dangerous. does that make me a zealot?

 

[gj62]

MHK -

I am not specifically against DIR/GUE/Halcyon, but I choose to not select or promote this to students or other divers I meet casually from a recreational perspective. Most of the gear placement requirements - which make sense in many cave/technical diving situations - are not as obvious in a recreational setting, 60' down on a warm-water reef. Since DIR requirements exist regardless of the environment, I believe they are a bit arbitrary (dogmatic). That's not to say they are bad or unsafe guidelines, just that their inflexibility is a failing.

Regarding equipment sales, since JJ is the head of both GUE and Halcyon, there is more than a little reason to suspect that decisions at GUE might be made to benefit Halcyon. If someone said, "Do it my way", and the *primary* source for the equipment needed was run by that person, it is more than natural to assume that there is a conflict of interest at hand. Especially when the company takes action against the competition.

Lastly, look at any major manufacturer of any type of gear before criticizing PADI's approach with their 5-Star rating. As a manufacturer, my company (we do not produce diving equip) has specific requirements to acheive certain standings within our dealer community. By adhering to those standards, we co-market our products and their dealership. PADI, understandably, withholds their premium rating from dealers that do not adhere to those requirements. Why should they promote a shop that could equally promote their competition? I'm no fan of PADI in many regards, but this actually makes business sense - we all know PADI is a business.

Now, if PADI starts making regulators, and requires their brand for certification...

 

[HammerNoMore]

Most of the gear placement requirements - which make sense in many cave/technical diving situations - are not as obvious in a recreational setting, 60' down on a warm-water reef. Since DIR requirements exist regardless of the environment, I believe they are a bit arbitrary (dogmatic). That's not to say they are bad or unsafe guidelines, just that their inflexibility is a failing.

It is for this very reason I condsider myself a DIS diver instead of a DIR diver.

http://www.divernet.com/technique/0202simple.htm

Regarding equipment sales, since JJ is the head of both GUE and Halcyon, there is more than a little reason to suspect that decisions at GUE might be made to benefit Halcyon. If someone said, "Do it my way", and the *primary* source for the equipment needed was run by that person, it is more than natural to assume that there is a conflict of interest at hand. Especially when the company takes action against the competition.

While in a general sense there is some truth to this statement, I don't believe JJ is guilty. IMHO he started Halcyon to make DIR eqipment available to the general public without them having to make their own. I don't believe he comes up with some new piece of equipment for Halcyon then re-writes DIR to sell it. In fact there is some equipment Halcyon sells that is, in fact, not DIR.

 

[LioKai]

To H2Andy,
I doubt that Albion was refering to you or MHK specificly. Many of us non-DIR certified people are hastled to a level of nothing short of beratement from others (the zealots) who carry a mythical flag of supposed superiority. Only the actual zealots act in this manner, you and MHK do not. I prefer to hear from the two of you any day over a few others from the DIR community.
Matthew

 

[H2Andy]

..actually.. i'm not DIR

i just read the book and liked what i saw. took most of it, didn't take some... every once in a while I'll ask a question in the DIR forum from those who know better,
but, alas... i fear i dive with a computer, have a jacket-style BC (photographer wanna be), and go wet...

 

[MHK]

MHK -

I am not specifically against DIR/GUE/Halcyon, but I choose to not select or promote this to students or other divers I meet casually from a recreational perspective. Most of the gear placement requirements - which make sense in many cave/technical diving situations - are not as obvious in a recreational setting, 60' down on a warm-water reef. Since DIR requirements exist regardless of the environment, I believe they are a bit arbitrary (dogmatic). That's not to say they are bad or unsafe guidelines, just that their inflexibility is a failing.

We believe that by teaching, and promoting, consistency from the open water level you utilize one of the basic educational teaching principles of the Law of Primacy, which essentially means that what you are taught initially will be your point of reference going forward. Given that the DIR system is consistent from one environment to the next we believe that it's safer and more efficient to teach divers to dive one way in all environments, rather then to teach them one way for OW, one way for caves and yet a third way for wrecks. Or to use one gear configuration for OW, one gear configuration for caves and then yet a third configuration for wrecks. That kind of inconsistency is precisely what you don't want to have should an emergency occur. By promoting one, consistent approach irrespective of the environment the diver need not consider during an emergency which configuration they have on or how their buddy is configured. It eliminates the uncertainty, confusion and stress at a time when the last thing you want is confusion and uncertainty.

We respect anyone's right to dive anyway they see fit, but we prefer to stay with those that share our ideology and commitment to reducing stress and confusion.

Regarding equipment sales, since JJ is the head of both GUE and Halcyon, there is more than a little reason to suspect that decisions at GUE might be made to benefit Halcyon. If someone said, "Do it my way", and the *primary* source for the equipment needed was run by that person, it is more than natural to assume that there is a conflict of interest at hand. Especially when the company takes action against the competition.

JJ has been very candid about his dual role at Halcyon and GUE, and we realize that this provides fodder for those that want to pursue this line of thinking. However, consider the following:

GUE promotes using a BP and wings over the use of a jacket style BC. JJ had been diving BP & wings well before he started either GUE and/or Halcyon. He taught and dove this way when he was TD and sat on the board at IANTD and NACD. Accordingly, JJ would recommend using a BP & wing whether or not he owned Halcyon. In the open ocean we promote carrying a lift bag, Halcyon makes lift bags. Do you seriously think that anyone recommends using a lift bag just because Halcyon makes them??? BTW, there is no requirement to use a "Halcyon" lift bag just a suggestion that you don't use a closed cell bag in a westuit. No brand name is required. We could go down the list of every product Halcyon makes, but you get my point.

In other words, rather then me justifying the fact that Halcyon provides gear that is consistent with DIR principles, would care to identify any item that JJ hadn't previously used and/or recommended prior to his dual role at Halcyon and GUE?

Lastly, look at any major manufacturer of any type of gear before criticizing PADI's approach with their 5-Star rating. As a manufacturer, my company (we do not produce diving equip) has specific requirements to acheive certain standings within our dealer community. By adhering to those standards, we co-market our products and their dealership. PADI, understandably, withholds their premium rating from dealers that do not adhere to those requirements. Why should they promote a shop that could equally promote their competition? I'm no fan of PADI in many regards, but this actually makes business sense - we all know PADI is a business.

In all candor I have no problem with PADI branding themselves and limiting the competition, that isn't my issue. My point that I was trying to raise was that it's hypocritical of those that suggest that GUE is so dogmatic when the largest agency in the world is equally, if not more so dogmatic, but yet is free from the criticism. I was just pointing out the double standard. I think it's easy to see the differences between PADI and GUE and in my view that allows the diver to make a clear choice which route they want to take. I have no problem with the 5 star concept, but atleast GUE is intelectually honest about the fact that they cater to the discriminating diver, whereas PADI wants to appear inclusive but shuts out the competition. That's all. As you note, this is business and PADI being a for-profit agency may have different goals and objectives then GUE which is a not-for-profit 501 (c)(3) organization. And frankly this has been a very productive thread so I'd rather not get into a PADI -v- GUE discussion, my sense is that horse has been beaten to death ;-)

Thanks for your points.

Regards

Michael Kane

 

[gj62]

While in a general sense there is some truth to this statement, I don't believe JJ is guilty. IMHO he started Halcyon to make DIR eqipment available to the general public without them having to make their own.

OK, but there has been aggressive & questionable legal action against competitors of Halcyon in the past (not by JJ directly perhaps, but people in business with him). This puts a very questionable spin on his belief that, "Our pledge is to offer divers and educators a new alternative- one that is not afraid to take a stand for safety over financial gain and quality over quantity." <Taken from the GUE website> I'm sure the lawsuits were all about safety... :54:

 

[HammerNoMore]

OK, but there has been aggressive & questionable legal action against competitors of Halcyon in the past (not by JJ directly perhaps, but people in business with him). This puts a very questionable spin on his belief that, "Our pledge is to offer divers and educators a new alternative- one that is not afraid to take a stand for safety over financial gain and quality over quantity." <Taken from the GUE website> I'm sure the lawsuits were all about safety... :54:

I'm not saying that Halcyon or JJ is not out to make money. Just that they are not making DIR fit Halcyon, but rather the other way around.

James

 

[kalvyn]

Most of the gear placement requirements - which make sense in many cave/technical diving situations - are not as obvious in a recreational setting, 60' down on a warm-water reef. Since DIR requirements exist regardless of the environment, I believe they are a bit arbitrary (dogmatic). That's not to say they are bad or unsafe guidelines, just that their inflexibility is a failing.

First off, I just want to be clear that I'm not trying to be argumentative at all. I'm just asking a question. This (and the other) thread has been informative and flame-free, which is very cool!

My question is; how are the GUE/DIR gear placement requirements not applicable to warm-water reef diving? I honestly would be interested in hearing why folks think this is, as in my personal experience I find this to not be true. I dove in Bonaire using my same gear I use here in the Sound (save using a 3 mil wetsuit rather than my drysuit!) and don't know what I would have done differently. I'm interested in other folks perspectives on this, since to me it made perfect sense.

Jimmie