Trust Me Dives

[Steve_C]

One of the more common themes on ScubaBoard is "though shalt not do trust me dives." Perhaps some perspective is needed. First off I am not saying that one should go deep into a cave with no cave experience or other dives that are way outside your training. Nor that you should do something just to go along even though you feel very uncomfortable. However, I will note that

-Most of our life activities are done on a trust me basis. I trust the pilots and mechanics and air traffic controllers, etc when I fly. I trust cab and bus drivers. The accident and injury rate in hospitals is probably much higher than in the recreational dive industry. I do not trust completely medical stays though I do have to trust the surgeon and the pharmacy to mix stuff right.

-The vast majority of recreational tourist centered diving is trust me diving from trusting the guide, to trusting the captain, to trusting the instructor, to the shop that maintains equipment and pumps air. And the accident rate is very low and most people very happy.

-By the time you get your OW you have done at least 4 dives and they were all trust me dives.

-The good advice, that I have given many times, is to hire a private DM for a new dive situation. In essence you are converting a dive to a trust me dive if you are doing it for safety reasons rather than just because you do not like group dives which is why I do it now.

-Over time, if one is open to learning, you will build your skills and knowledge so that your trust is more based on your own experience and skills and less on that of the diver you are with.

-Always temper that trust with what knowledge and comfort you have with the situation and your own skills. You can thumb at any time and ultimately you are responsible for your own safety and happiness. Have fun.

 

[tbone1004]

@Steve_C I think it's important to understand how we define a trust me dive. What is your definition of a trust me dive?

 

[2airishuman]

The essence of trust-me dives is the absence of informed consent to the unique risks of the dive.

 

[tbone1004]

The essence of trust-me dives is the absence of informed consent to the unique risks of the dive.

that's a different version that what we usually use

 

[PatW]

I suppose a trust me Dive is a dive that first goes beyond your training. Going be6ond your training is not enough to be a true trust me dive. There are times when one goes beyond trying but if things don’t work, you can immediately bail out. On a trust me dive you have to rely on either a) nothing going wrong that you believe that you cannot handle or b) if something does go wrong, someone else is going to bail you out. The rub is that you do not have any idea if that other person can or willl bail you out. It can also be called a bad feeling dive. If your spidey sense is not tingling, it ought to be.

That is why a hired DM is not a trust me dive. You have paid a trained professional to get you through the dive. You have told them about your short comings. They are trained and they should have the judgement to know if this is a safe situation. If it is something that is so beyond you that you should not be doing it, they should refuse to do it and tell you why it is a bad idea.

 

[jlcnuke]

Personally, I'd think a "trust me dive" would be one in which the diver "trusts" someone else's expertise to determine that it's safe for them to do the dive.

Using that as a reference, I think it's important for divers to ensure that THEY are personally comfortable with the dive as well. Just because a charter says you meet their requirements to do a particular dive doesn't mean you're going to be comfortable doing that dive, even with their guide potentially.

For example, before I knew much about the site, I came across a bunch of places going to the Oriskany for charters. I ignore my "initial" dive experiences as they were a long time ago and not complex at all. Using that, I consider myself to have 4 dives under my belt (my OW course). In ~2 weeks, I'll have 9 dives under my belt (the OW course and the AOW course).

For one charter, that alone is enough to be considered "advanced" enough for this "advanced dive". Alternatively, 25 dives anywhere (at any depth) is all they require...

Another charter requires 20 dives (2 below 80') and having done the AOW course in order to dive the Oriskany with them without even needing a guide. Now, I don't know that doing 1 deep dive after the AOW course and getting 10 shore dives in would make me competent to dive such a site...

I know I have no intention of finding out if I'd be competent enough for either of those though because I don't personally think I'd be competent enough for such a dive at that point. So while they might "trust" that I was okay to do it, I think the onus still has to be on me to recognize that I'm probably not ready to dive that with such little experience/training.

 

[northernone]

My own risk tolerance has me avoid situations where I am unable to be reasonably confident I can be okay if the other human involved fails. A single failure point should not result in my possible demise.

Some situations have multiple safeguards, like commercial aircraft, or multiple contingency plans, like walking in traffic. If my only viable plan for survival is hope the single person I'm with can save my @ss, I'd rather sit out.

This was solidified by an experience of tandom parasailing. I don't want to ever dive with that same helplessness. This is my own choice in a hobby I love.

In short, when I'm in training I won't let myself go into a situation I can't get myself out of if the instructor dies. That's an unlikely scenario but it draws the lines in the right places for my own comfort. Same goes for buddy diving or professional services.

I'm sure others are comfortable trusting their life into the hands of another and as a result able to experience more than they would safely alone. Training progression also would progress faster I imagine.

Regards,
Cameron

 

[tbone1004]

the definition of "trust me" dive is more inline with what Pat said.
Training dives are not trust me dives because training dives are validations of skills and you are not reliant on the instructor. The instructor is there as a spare parachute, but is not expected to have to interfere. After all, these dives are the proof that you have the skills necessary to complete similar dives independently. These do not count.
Hiring DM's with local knowledge to guide you around a new site is not a trust-me dive. They are not there to save you, they are not taking you out of your comfort zone *hopefully*, but they are there to expose you to a new environment and make sure you have the skills necessary to safely complete that dive. This is more like an unofficial "training dive" than anything. They are there to make your dive experience better and safer, but you are not reliant on them.

Examples of a true "trust me dive"
Taking a new OW diver to 130ft with a decompression limit-they do not have the training or experience to conduct that dive safely on their own, and are reliant on the person taking them there for their safety
Taking an OW diver into a cave
Taking an intro cave diver through complex navigation in a cave

Those are examples of "trust me dives" where the diver is largely incapable of executing that dive safely on their own.

 

[Steve_C]

One aspect of trust me, is when either I do not have the basis to make a decision

. On a trust me dive you have to rely on either a) nothing going wrong that you believe that you cannot handle or b) if something does go wrong, someone else is going to bail you out.
....
That is why a hired DM is not a trust me dive. You have paid a trained professional to get you through the dive. You have told them about your short comings. They are trained and they should have the judgement to know if this is a safe situation. If it is something that is so beyond you that you should not be doing it, they should refuse to do it and tell you why it is a bad idea.

Seems that you are trusting the DM. Whether they have a card that says DM or MSTI or whatever, is not a guarantee that they will make good decisions as the accident forum shows us. Personally my current use of DM/guides, when I use them, falls under a).

 

[kelemvor]

the definition of "trust me" dive is more inline with what Pat said.
Training dives are not trust me dives because training dives are validations of skills and you are not reliant on the instructor. The instructor is there as a spare parachute, but is not expected to have to interfere. After all, these dives are the proof that you have the skills necessary to complete similar dives independently. These do not count.
Hiring DM's with local knowledge to guide you around a new site is not a trust-me dive. They are not there to save you, they are not taking you out of your comfort zone *hopefully*, but they are there to expose you to a new environment and make sure you have the skills necessary to safely complete that dive. This is more like an unofficial "training dive" than anything. They are there to make your dive experience better and safer, but you are not reliant on them.

Examples of a true "trust me dive"
Taking a new OW diver to 130ft with a decompression limit-they do not have the training or experience to conduct that dive safely on their own, and are reliant on the person taking them there for their safety
Taking an OW diver into a cave
Taking an intro cave diver through complex navigation in a cave

Those are examples of "trust me dives" where the diver is largely incapable of executing that dive safely on their own.

I've often seen people describe a much broader range of conditions as being trust me dives. It sounds to me like the concept of "trust me dive" is not well agreed upon. I've certainly seen many people on scubaboard describe dives done during training as trust me dives.

There's a variety of threads on the topic, and fewer people seem to agree on what constitutes a trust me dive than most "controversial" topics here on SB.


Here's a few:
Scary Wreck Tale - Ghastly 'Trust Me' diving...
What's a trust me dive?
What makes trust me dives bad, and what makes them worse?
Instructors doing "trust me" dives.
"Trust Me Dive" Troubles
New divers and "trust me" dives
Is it or is it not a trust me dive?
How does one avoid a Trust Me dive ??

and on other sites:
Trust Me Dive
Exceeding training limits on a trust me dive
Cave Diver's Forum - Cave Diving Terms
http://www.cavediver.net/old_reports/cdf_report_008.htm
Friedman sink protocol?

Cavediver.net even made an attempt to define the term. Obviously their definition is within the narrow focus of a cave diver, as you would expect for that site: Cave Diver's Forum - Cave Diving Terms


I mean, by some definitions the first time you dive any cave it's going to be a trust me dive.. I guess unless you've maybe got a ROV to check out the line yourself...

I know, this thread isn't about cave diving at all, my point was just to illustrate that it's a never-ending debate about a poorly defined phrase where the "culprits" of trust me diving range from uncertified students (or not students) all the way up to certified cave divers, possibly with the only exception being those during virgin cave exploration since there is nobody to trust in that situation.

I'm not usually an emoji kind of guy, but I think this will be a good thread for or maybe even