What happened to PST

[Graeme Tolton]

Also, just a though for Americans living near the US/Canada Border... Bring your tanks to be hydro tested in Canada. The stamping will be the same. I am thinking that the dive shops are not going to want to turn them away for fills, seeing as these tanks are not prone to failure any more than other HP steel tanks.

 

[scubafanatic]

I have talked this over with the PHMSA exemptions people on numerous occasions, and it appears from everything they tell me that the process is simply and doesn't cost anything. Basically, one tank owner has to apply to them for a "use" exemption, which allows using the tank, but not making more. Once it is granted (which will take a month or so) other tank owners then become a party to that exemption by just contacting the DOT and asking to be added to it. I would urge anyone who doubts or wonders about this to call them and ask, so we can doublecheck what I have been told. rather than speculating endlessly here about it. Oh, the application form is on the PHMSA website if anyone wants to see it - this is not black magic, gas suppliers get use exemptions all the time.

BTW the DOT exemption dept is really hoping that PST (if anything remains of it by then) will renew the exemption, since it will create an incredible amount of paperwork for them if PST doesn't. In the case of the Norris expiration they were very pro active in getting Norris to renew it after Norris had decided not to, doubtlessly part of the reason was that the DOT didn't want to extra work if they Norris didn't, but all the same it saved the tank owners a lot of hassle, and I think the PHMSA exemptions people deserve a lot of credit for it.

...OK, I checked out the govt WWW site......and proceeded to get lost, as it's obviously meant to be accessed/read by industry types...not average scuba divers...so I just submitted an informational request via one of their e-mail 'forms'....so we'll see what happens. Also, I'm curious, is the end result here some sort of certificate that the govt mails out to me, that I have to bring/show to any entity/shop/boat that fills my tanks to 'prove' my tanks are 'special'/'legal' ? ...and if the answer is 'yes', I forsee any infinite supply of baffled/*** ? looks I'm gonna be getting from the average shop monkey filling my tanks......I guess my hope is that I'll only REALLY need this paperwork once every 5 years to show the hydro facility, and that as long as my tanks have ongoing/valid hydros 99.9 % of shops/boats either won't have a clue or couldn't care less about this 'exemption crap' !

 

[oldnotdead]

thanks for the info! Too bad for PST.

 

[oxyhacker]

Once tank owners apply to be party to the new "use" SP (which can be done by mail, fax or email) they will be sent an authorization letter. This letter, and a copy of the SP, should be kept with the tank when it is being filled or transported in commerce, or hydrotested. There is no charge for either the initial use SP or being made party to it.

The DOT people I have talked to foresee no problem in granting the use permit for the 9791s if PST doesnt' renew their SP, as they say they have already established a good enough track record that the determination has been made that they are safe for use, so the SP is in effect already preauthorized. This also means the reporting of problems with the tanks mentioned in the application will not be necessary.

The only catch in all this is the possible delay in getting things done, if PST has just vanished. Unless they inform the DOT that they will not be renewing the SP, the DOT cannot consider issuing a use permit until 60 days before the old manufacturer's SP expires, and issuing the new one can take between 2 and 8 weeks depending on how busy they are. So there might be a gap between the old manufacturer's SP expiring and the new one coming into effect, however, I doubt this would be a serious problem as most dive shops won't even be aware it has happened - remember, in the case of the recent Norris and Asahi expirations it was months and months before anyone noticed.

There are a couple other things worth noting:

- It is not necessary to register each tank separately, and once a business or individual becomes party to the SP they can fill or transport any 9791 tank, not just ones belonging to them.
- Since privately owned tanks are not subject to DOT regulations, a diver can disregard much of the above, that is to say, there is no reason why you should have to keep the paperwork with you every time you go diving, or to the shop when you get the tanks filled unless, of course, the shop insists on it. My suspicion is that most shops will just go on filling the tanks, as they are legally entitled to do, regardless of the exemption status. One will need the paperwork to get the tanks hydrotested, though.

Also, I'm curious, is the end result here some sort of certificate that the govt mails out to me, that I have to bring/show to any entity/shop/boat that fills my tanks to 'prove' my tanks are 'special'/'legal' ? ...and if the answer is 'yes', I forsee any infinite supply of baffled/*** ? looks I'm gonna be getting from the average shop monkey filling my tanks......I guess my hope is that I'll only REALLY need this paperwork once every 5 years to show the hydro facility, and that as long as my tanks have ongoing/valid hydros 99.9 % of shops/boats either won't have a clue or couldn't care less about this 'exemption crap' !

 

[redacted]

- It is not necessary to register each tank separately, and once a business or individual becomes party to the SP they can fill or transport any 9791 tank, not just ones belonging to them.
- Since privately owned tanks are not subject to DOT regulations, a diver can disregard much of the above, that is to say, there is no reason why you should have to keep the paperwork with you every time you go diving, or to the shop when you get the tanks filled unless, of course, the shop insists on it. My suspicion is that most shops will just go on filling the tanks, as they are legally entitled to do, regardless of the exemption status. One will need the paperwork to get the tanks hydrotested, though.

Is the exemption something that must be obtained by the tank owner or is it possible for another entity such as a dive shop to obtain the exemption allowing them to fill all such tanks?

 

[oxyhacker]

The plot thickens...

I just decided to try the last known PST phone number one last time just for the hell of it, and Bob Darling answered. He said they are still alive, and fully intend to renew the SPs on the old tanks, when they come due.

They appear to be operating out of an office, with all their remaining machinery like the galvanizing plant in storage, while they wait for the Korean tanks to start coming, something that has been taking much longer than expected. He said they had lost their phone service in the last move, and it has just been reestablished. Apparently they are also selling Korean CNG tanks, so they still have some income coming in.

So while how alive they are is debatable, is appears they are not yet dead.

 

[oxyhacker]

Funny you should ask that. I got wondering the same thing, and just got off the phone after running it by the DOT SP branch.

If an individual or shop that is party to the SP is able to fill or test any tank made under that exemption, not just their own, it would seem that a shop could just become party to the exemption, and fill anyone's tanks, or a hydro shop do it and test them, rather than each tank owner becoming party to the SP.

The DOT and gave me a somewhat-less-than-resounding "yes" (remember, phone or email responses from gov agencies are usually considered "informational" and not authoritive and are not binding). I think they were a little intrigued by the notion as it might provide a loophole to save them from having to issue thousands upon thousands of authorizations to individuals.

Note that this probably only works for privately owned tanks, which are not used in commerce, since they are not under DOT regulations when they are transported away from the dive shop or hydrotest facility. And of course the shop's own tanks.

Is the exemption something that must be obtained by the tank owner or is it possible for another entity such as a dive shop to obtain the exemption allowing them to fill all such tanks?

 

[Scott L]

Funny you should ask that. I got wondering the same thing, and just got off the phone after running it by the DOT SP branch.

If an individual or shop that is party to the SP is able to fill or test any tank made under that exemption, not just their own, it would seem that a shop could just become party to the exemption, and fill anyone's tanks, or a hydro shop do it and test them, rather than each tank owner becoming party to the SP.

The DOT and gave me a somewhat-less-than-resounding "yes" (remember, phone or email responses from gov agencies are usually considered "informational" and not authoritive and are not binding). I think they were a little intrigued by the notion as it might provide a loophole to save them from having to issue thousands upon thousands of authorizations to individuals.

Note that this probably only works for privately owned tanks, which are not used in commerce, since they are not under DOT regulations when they are transported away from the dive shop or hydrotest facility. And of course the shop's own tanks.

Good work Oxyhacker! I was wrong once again...:depressed:

 

[widget]

The plot thickens...

I just decided to try the last known PST phone number one last time just for the hell of it, and Bob Darling answered. He said they are still alive, and fully intend to renew the SPs on the old tanks, when they come due.

They appear to be operating out of an office, with all their remaining machinery like the galvanizing plant in storage, while they wait for the Korean tanks to start coming, something that has been taking much longer than expected. He said they had lost their phone service in the last move, and it has just been reestablished. Apparently they are also selling Korean CNG tanks, so they still have some income coming in.

So while how alive they are is debatable, is appears they are not yet dead.

Yes, interesting post,.......I was recieving e-mails advertising quantity specials on PST high pressure cylinders right up until,..... I think the last I recieved was November 2008.!

I was not aware of the DOT / SP issue and was almost tempted to buy 30+ which gave me the maximum discount, but due to various factors at the time, didnt!.

Perhaps their thinking was it would be better for them to sell off a number of cylinders to the international market where the expiry of the SP exemption in the USA would not really be an issue, as most countries have their own standards / qualifications for importing and testing high pressure vessels?.

 

[WD8CDH]

I wonder if an individual could "buy" the existing SP from PST? Or buy .001% of PST for a dollar and then renew the SP?