what makes a diving agency a diving agency?

[Moonglow]

Great divers come from all types of programs.

Our shop has been teaching diving since 1972, including the local university academic diving program-- certified over five thousand students. We have fifteen instructors, including six course directors and four cave instructors.

As other posters have stated on this forum, GUE and UTD are not agencies by definition, they are more akin to regional dive clubs (there are others like them as well). We do not agree with the intent of GUE's teaching standards, which are more inline with indoctrination than that of instruction which results in independent thinking divers.

My personal teaching philosophy is best represented by the NAUI standards; 70% of my new students go on to advanced ratings.

 

[Wookie]

So what your saying is that you would fill a commercial saturation divers tanks, but he wouldn't be qualified to dive with your group... :joke:

Having observed classes at Louisiana Technical College as well as The Ocean Corp, the Commercial Dive Students aren't trained to dive recreationally. Yes, they can take a recreational dive class in conjunction with the commercial dive portion, but you know as well as I that being a hard hat tethered umbilical diver doesn't exactly translate well to single tank neutral buoyant fin diving.

 

[Akimbo]

Having observed classes at Louisiana Technical College as well as The Ocean Corp, the Commercial Dive Students aren't trained to dive recreationally. Yes, they can take a recreational dive class in conjunction with the commercial dive portion, but you know as well as I that being a hard hat tethered umbilical diver doesn't exactly translate well to single tank neutral buoyant fin diving.

True, but they have the knowledge and skills required to be safe... which cannot be said of far too many AOW certified divers who also have poor buoyancy control. Commercial divers may have lousy SAC rates; but they are extremely unlikely to panic, embolize, drown, or get bent.

Great divers come from all types of programs...

Unfortunately, the same can be said for really bad divers. However, I agree with your entire post. Semester/quarter-long academic diving programs are a huge cut above typical recreational programs. They have the time and standards more typical of pre-1980s dive courses. I bet most even test to ensure students can actually swim… what a quaint concept.

 

[OldNSalty]

As other posters have stated on this forum, GUE and UTD are not agencies by definition, they are more akin to regional dive clubs (there are others like them as well).

But...but...you recognize BSAC...which the 'B' and 'C' would indicate that they are a regional club.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Great divers come from all types of programs.

Our shop has been teaching diving since 1972, including the local university academic diving program-- certified over five thousand students. We have fifteen instructors, including six course directors and four cave instructors.

As other posters have stated on this forum, GUE and UTD are not agencies by definition, they are more akin to regional dive clubs (there are others like them as well). We do not agree with the intent of GUE's teaching standards, which are more inline with indoctrination than that of instruction which results in independent thinking divers.

My personal teaching philosophy is best represented by the NAUI standards; 70% of my new students go on to advanced ratings.

UTD seems to think they are an agency:
"UTD is revolutionizing scuba diving by creating The Thinking Team. UTD is global community, training agency, and dedicated equipment."


" What is GUE? Global Underwater Explorers (GUE) www.globalunderwaterexplorers.org is a non-profit organization formed by leading explorers, researchers, and educators; these individuals are dedicated to the training of divers as well as the study and protection of the aquatic realm. GUE and its associated projects are responsible for conducting some of the world’s most remarkable dives, setting numerous world records in the process. The success of this group encouraged great interest in their diving and procedures. Of particular interest is the promotion of solid fundamental skills for all divers (recreational and technical) as well as their adherence to a common diving standard. This general standard requires the following:

• Divers use the same equipment configuration; this enhances safety and efficiency.
• Divers use the same well-defined set of breathing gases, including Nitrox, Helium and Oxygen; standard mixes eliminate complexity and greatly enhance safety.
• Divers use a team approach during all dives, facilitating fun and safety.
• Divers must have a solid grasp of fundamental diving skills, including refined buoyancy, trim and teamwork; these skills must be developed in concert with the type of dive pursued. Difficult dives require very high levels of skill development.

Over time it became obvious that divers experiencing difficulty in advanced dives and during technical training were suffering from poorly developed fundamental skills. Among other deficiencies basic skills were lacking, including good buoyancy control, efficient propulsion techniques and effective air sharing techniques; this was true despite the fact that applicants were often experienced divers. Consequently, the founders of GUE attempted to shift the industry away from quantity and toward a focus that insisted upon greater capacity from motivated individuals. Over time it became apparent that too many factors were discouraging migration to longer more demanding instruction. Profit driven forces coupled with general inertia encouraged the persistent reduction of diver training requirements. As a non-profit education, research, conservation and exploration agency Global Underwater Explorers appeared better situated to encourage robust training; ultimately this emphasis led to the expansion of GUE’s diver training division. "

I'd call that an agency as well. It's obvious your exposure to divers from these agencies is pretty much nil. I'd rather be indoctrinated in proven safe diving practices as opposed to being ripped off for useles specialties. And I've never taken a class from either and have no plans to do so.

 

[randytay]

You can start your own agency, but one of the hurdles is finding someone who will insure you. Andrew Georgitsis started UTD about four or five years ago -- as far as I know, he is not a member of the RSTC, but he does have insurance, so somebody vetted his standards and found them acceptable to insure. Whether you would find a dive operator in the Maldives willing to honor a UTD certification card is a good question, but I also think that, the further you get from litigation, the less people worry about the legitimacy of cards.

I have gotten pretty close with UTD, and yes there were attorneys who vetted his standards and found them to meet or exceed standards to be insured. Also, he IS Andrew Georgitsis!

---------- Post Merged at 03:32 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 02:59 PM ----------

NAUI, PADI, YMCA, NASDS, SSI, SDI/TDI/ERDI, SEI, PSAI, ACUC, BSAC, CMAS, NASE, PDIC, ANDI, DAN, HSA, IDEA, IANTD, Red Cross, LA County, NACD, NCC-CDS

So... If my buddy and I come to your store with a GUE and UTD card respectively, we will be turned away if we wanted to join your group for a dive?

 

[Dave1981]

As other posters have stated on this forum, GUE and UTD are not agencies by definition

What definition is that?

We do not agree with the intent of GUE's teaching standards, which are more inline with indoctrination than that of instruction which results in independent thinking divers.

So you disagree that divers should be self sufficient, technically proficient, skilled in the basics, can work with unknown similarly trained divers and integrate seamlessly to the team and fully be able to asses the dives they choose to do by having trained the skills they need to decide for themselves if they're able to do such a dive.

Might I ask what part of 'Creating the thinking diver' which, ok is from UTD, differs with the UTD/GUE or any other decent agency philosophy. What exactly is missing, or demanded in the training that we, as agencies require of our divers that indoctrinates them in our heathen ways that prevents a diver taking the best possible information from all angles and is forced to succumb to living with our style of diving.

My personal teaching philosophy is best represented by the NAUI standards; 70% of my new students go on to advanced ratings.

Is your philosophy also that you should disregard training agencies in your shop, because despite of their higher standards you have a problem with specific people?

Personally, I don't care. You can be as prejudiced as you like to me, burn heratics on the lawn for all I care but one day, one of my students might end up at your shop as a qualified diver, more able at the end of their open water course than many instructors I know. Will you deny them the dive out of pettiness?

 

[randytay]

Dave, you from cave heaven?

 

[Pullmyfinger]

Great divers come from all types of programs.

Our shop has been teaching diving since 1972, including the local university academic diving program-- certified over five thousand students. We have fifteen instructors, including six course directors and four cave instructors.

As other posters have stated on this forum, GUE and UTD are not agencies by definition, they are more akin to regional dive clubs (there are others like them as well). We do not agree with the intent of GUE's teaching standards, which are more inline with indoctrination than that of instruction which results in independent thinking divers.

My personal teaching philosophy is best represented by the NAUI standards; 70% of my new students go on to advanced ratings.

What do you feel is the intent of GUE's teaching standards? And what aspects of their higher standards do you not agree with.

Ahhhh....the "thinking" diver jab again.....I can only imagine where you got that one given to you.
Ban the divers you want, it's not going to affect my diving.....
.....if you are of the opinion that GUE divers aren't taught to think, there's a lot you don't know.
Much time is spend "thinking" about many aspects of diving and contingency planning.

Your ban doesn't demonstrate much "thinking" at all.

I thought you were going to lead in to some rational reasons why you choose to ban GUE and UTD divers (your earlier posts seemed to be leading that direction), instead you just listed your shops resume and mentioned something about 70% of your students going on to advanced class???

Does anyone have a list of shops and destinations that don't allow GUE divers?
Maybe we could make it a sticky, so it would be easily found for future reference.
There must be more that share the same view. I'd like to avoid any awkwardness, and not inadvertently go to the wrong places. :-(

What shop are we all discussing anyway?

Anyway
Take care,
Mitch

 

[Dave1981]

Not affiliated, but they're good friends of mine.