Number of dives metric

[MXGratefulDiver]

Go to any dive shops web site (those that do charters) and pull up their disclaimer form and at the bottom you will find these questions: what is your certifying agency, what level is your certification, and what is your deepest dive? Instead of listing rescue with 5 specialties I simply write master diver.

... AOW will get you on pretty much all of those boats ... for recreational charters, I've yet to meet anyone who requires more than that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[kensuf]

Different agencies have different standards for designations by the same name. I'm a NAUI instructor, and was in fact at one time a NAUI Master Diver. In the NAUI system it's a real course ... made so not through the purchase of specialty classes, but by course content specific to a Master Diver class and designated skills mandated for that level fo diving. In other words, you don't just send them $50 and receive the badge. In the NAUI system, Master Diver is the diving skills portion of their DM designation ... so it does exactly what you indicate some people want ... provide a path to pursue the diving skills of a pro without having to deal with the leadership and liability issues. SEI has a similar Master Diver designation based on the requirements of the old YMCA program from which they were created. Other agencies may, as well ... but I'm not familiar with the specifics of those agencies.

If you want a merit badge for taking a bunch of classes, that's all well and good ... but it in no way makes you a "master diver", except in the parlance of a company whose reason for existence is to sell you more classes. I don't care to get into another argument about the merits or lack thereof of particular PADI programs ... but I do wish they'd not choose to use the same name for a merit badge that other agencies have used for decades to mean something significantly more. It's a bit of sleazy marketing, to my concern.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Hi,

NAUI instructor here, and former YMCA instructor trainer, and an SDI instructor too, and once upon a time a PADI divemaster.

I teach the NAUI Master Diver program two times a year in an academic setting (university program). In my opinion, what makes the NAUI Master Diver program unique is the academic portion, and not any particular "diving skills". If done correctly, the academics in the NAUI Master Diver Program are structured along the same lines as you will find in the Divemaster program in many different agencies.

However, a well organized and taught other agency Master Diver program that incorporates four or five distinct specialties can cover the same academics, and provide plenty of diving opportunities to develop skills. But of course it boils down to the instructor teaching the course.

For instance, an "Underwater Naturalist" specialty should expose a diver to instructor level environmental knowledge. "Search and Salvage" should expose the diver to instructor level considerations of Archimedes' principle and physics. And so on. It just requires a dedicated instructor to take care of it.

The SDI Master Diver program is a little different in that it goes beyond just requiring a number of specialties, and is also experiential based; you have to have 50 logged dives before you can qualify for it.

... AOW will get you on pretty much all of those boats ... for recreational charters, I've yet to meet anyone who requires more than that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Sorry, but I find it slightly ironic that you complain about the PADI Master Diver Program, but then talk about AOW. Prior to 1996, the current NAUI Master Diver Program was called "Advanced Open Water," and the current NAUI Advanced Open Water program was called "Open Water 2" (or something). NAUI caved in to market pressures in 1996 and renamed their programs to keep up with the Joneses and watered them down in the process.

Ironically enough, the SDI Advanced Diver program is more like the old NAUI program. There's a 25 dive experiential requirement. But in order to have something that is market compatible, SDI offers an "Advanced Adventure Diver," which is nearly identical the PADI AOW.

OK, sorry about my little rant.

Ken

 

[mathauck0814]

Sorry, but I find it slightly ironic that you complain about the PADI Master Diver Program, but then talk about AOW. Prior to 1996, the current NAUI Master Diver Program was called "Advanced Open Water," and the current NAUI Advanced Open Water program was called "Open Water 2" (or something). NAUI caved in to market pressures in 1996 and renamed their programs to keep up with the Joneses and watered them down in the process.

Ironically enough, the SDI Advanced Diver program is more like the old NAUI program. There's a 25 dive experiential requirement. But in order to have something that is market compatible, SDI offers an "Advanced Adventure Diver," which is nearly identical the PADI AOW.

OK, sorry about my little rant.

Ken

I don't care to get into another argument about the merits or lack thereof of particular PADI programs ... but I do wish they'd not choose to use the same name for a merit badge that other agencies have used for decades to mean something significantly more. It's a bit of sleazy marketing, to my concern.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I think Bob already covered your concern. Most of the low end programs are lacking (as has been beaten to death). It's too bad (IMO) to see higher end programs being dragged down to the lowest common denominator as well.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Hi,

NAUI instructor here, and former YMCA instructor trainer, and an SDI instructor too, and once upon a time a PADI divemaster.

I teach the NAUI Master Diver program two times a year in an academic setting (university program). In my opinion, what makes the NAUI Master Diver program unique is the academic portion, and not any particular "diving skills". If done correctly, the academics in the NAUI Master Diver Program are structured along the same lines as you will find in the Divemaster program in many different agencies.

However, a well organized and taught other agency Master Diver program that incorporates four or five distinct specialties can cover the same academics, and provide plenty of diving opportunities to develop skills. But of course it boils down to the instructor teaching the course.

For instance, an "Underwater Naturalist" specialty should expose a diver to instructor level environmental knowledge. "Search and Salvage" should expose the diver to instructor level considerations of Archimedes' principle and physics. And so on. It just requires a dedicated instructor to take care of it.

The SDI Master Diver program is a little different in that it goes beyond just requiring a number of specialties, and is also experiential based; you have to have 50 logged dives before you can qualify for it.




Sorry, but I find it slightly ironic that you complain about the PADI Master Diver Program, but then talk about AOW. Prior to 1996, the current NAUI Master Diver Program was called "Advanced Open Water," and the current NAUI Advanced Open Water program was called "Open Water 2" (or something). NAUI caved in to market pressures in 1996 and renamed their programs to keep up with the Joneses and watered them down in the process.

Ironically enough, the SDI Advanced Diver program is more like the old NAUI program. There's a 25 dive experiential requirement. But in order to have something that is market compatible, SDI offers an "Advanced Adventure Diver," which is nearly identical the PADI AOW.

OK, sorry about my little rant.

Ken

Actually I don't see what you wrote as a rant ... nor do I see it particularly disagreeing with my position. My point in bringing up AOW is simply that you don't need a Master Diver certification to go on any recreational dive charter ... regardless of agency. Some boats will require AOW for deeper dives, but an awful lot only require a basic OW certification.

For the most part I agree with what you say about the NAUI Master Diver program, although the diving skills portion does include the diving skills required for NAUI DM ... which is not the case in other agency's specialty classes. And the skills offered in those specialty classes depend entirely on the choice of specialties and the emphasis on diving skills placed on the student by the individual instructor.

The NAUI Master Diver program is held to standards written specifically for that program ... which, since it's the diving portion of the DM training, are reasonably high. Specialty classes are not held to those same standards.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[EFX]

To this I would add: It doesn't offer you any specific identifiable knowledge with which to dive differently or better. In this particular case, the Master Diver has exactly the same knowledge as the non-Master Diver who completed Rescue & 5 specialties.

... AOW will get you on pretty much all of those boats ... for recreational charters, I've yet to meet anyone who requires more than that ...... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Agreed. MD is not a requirement but listing the cert means that op's know you have additional training and dives (50) beyond rescue, and with it a dedication and committment that (may) imply better skills. Having rescue as a minimum may mean no specialties taken or additional dives (experience). One of the charters I've taken during equipment setup the captain siad in a loud voice "where is my master diver" to which I meekly raised my hand. At the time I had just over 100 dives and I got paired up with a diver with 1 month of experience. We did a wreck at 50 feet in low current and 10 feet of viz. We came across a sand tiger shark, resident to the wreck, and my buddy semi-panicked. I was able to calm him down but after he indicated 500 lb we got back on the boat. The total dive time was 12 minutes. I still had 2000 lbs. I didn't think much of this just chalking it up to one of those not-so-good dives (the second dive was much better but I had a different buddy). Then I realized the captain was purposely pairing up the best (or better) divers with the weaker divers. The captain had more confidence in me than other AOW divers on the boat.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

... that seems to fall under the "no good deed goes unpunished" category.

When I travel without my regular dive buddy ... which happens rarely ... I only tell them I'm AOW certified ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[mathauck0814]

No kidding. EFX, I'm sorry you had that experience. I'd never do that to you on the boat I crew for. It's generally best to understate your qualifications rather than overstate them for the reason you experienced.

 

[EFX]

Good advice. This was the only occurance and most of the other charters my buddy ends up being more experienced at least on those that aren't DM led. It bothers me that I lie on the waiver form and sign it. What if there's multiple divers in trouble at the surface and the op needs help beyond what the DM can do - do you help them? You have the training but if you help are you in trouble with the op who assumes that since you are only AOW don't have the training and therefore shouldn't help? If you decide not to help wouldn't your conscious bother you? In either case if there is a formal investigation can you be held liable for anything knowing full well that you lied? Any thoughts or actual experiences?

 

[mathauck0814]

Good advice. This was the only occurance and most of the other charters my buddy ends up being more experienced at least on those that aren't DM led. It bothers me that I lie on the waiver form and sign it. What if there's multiple divers in trouble at the surface and the op needs help beyond what the DM can do - do you help them? You have the training but if you help are you in trouble with the op who assumes that since you are only AOW don't have the training and therefore shouldn't help? If you decide not to help wouldn't your conscious bother you? In either case if there is a formal investigation can you be held liable for anything knowing full well that you lied? Any thoughts or actual experiences?

Splitting out to another thread http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ba...understating-qualification-charter-boats.html

 

[mselenaous]

It seems all agencies use the number of dives to qualitatively measure the experience of a diver.
Wouldn't it be better to use the number of hours underwater instead? Someone once went as far as suggesting me to log three 20 minutes dives instead of the one hour dive I did... WTF.

Not all agencies count number of dives. NASE counts bottom time - minutes underwater.