Bad Dive Master

[lundysd]

I think some of these dive number generalizations are unfair. To some degree, the number of dives influences the quality of the diver, but at some point the individual becomes the limiting factor. A good divemaster should certainly be proficient in the water, but IMHO it is possible to achieve proficiency within 20-40 dives. Beyond that level, the most important characteristics are a willing to learn and work hard, an intrinsic level of teaching and leadership, and most importantly a dedication to safety.

Speaking as a relatively young divemaster, I can attest to this fact. My DM class contained 7 people with as few as 25 and as many as 125 dives, and there was no correlation between dive count and divemaster ability. This was reinforced by the fact that just a little over 50% of the class passed.

Do I think I need more dives to be proficient as a DM? No.... do I think the more dives, the better the chance I will be able to handle a bad situation? Yes, but this is true in ANY situation, not just leading divers.

Now if we extend this argument to Instructor training, then I have a different attitude. 50 dives (the current minimum for NAUI) is far too little for teaching untrained divers, demonstrating skills clearly, and maintaining situational awareness all at the same time.

As usual, however, your mileage may vary.

 

[Cacia]

It is not so much dive skills where I see new DM's getting in over their head. It is usually navigation on sites they are not familiar with. Or no local knowledge of currents, effects of swell in certainlocations..that sort of thing.

 

[RonFrank]

twenty? wow, that's nuts. how do you get to rescue with twenty dives?

You can finish Rescue with 20 dives, but I would not recommend that. But...

OW.. 4 - dives
AOW 5 - dives
You must have 20 to finish Rescue. If you count the rescue dives as 4 dives that means one can finish Rescue with only 7 additional dives.

I might do DM in the winter, but would like 100 dives under my belt first. That's a bit hard to get done living where I do, but I'm around 60 now, and will likely get at least 15 dives while in FL, more if I can swing it and still spend quality time with the family.

I guess I'd be comfortable starting DM at 80 dives...

 

[RonFrank]

It is not so much dive skills where I see new DM's getting in over their head. It is usually navigation on sites they are not familiar with. Or no local knowledge of currents, effects of swell in certainlocations..that sort of thing.

Those are the things I would expect most in a DM.

The main thing I want in a DM is local knowledge of the site, currents, when the best and or safest times are to dive, and making sure we land on the site we expect to dive.

 

[RonFrank]

Another thought on this whole number of dives thing.

A LOT of my dives have BT of an hour. One was an hour and fourty minutes. Some would count my hour dives as three, and my longest dive as five! I could have certainly surface for long enough on each dive to turn it into more to count if that was my goal.

It seems that we judge the wrong thing. Who has more experience, the guy who has assisted OW students in checkout dives for 15 minitues at a pop counting each dive as 1 and hanging on a platform, or the guy who spends an hour UW per dive diving OW and doing OW ascents and safety stops without a platform or line?

Seems to me we make more out of the number of dives when really diving different conditions, different depths, different exposure situations and getting max BT really makes one a stronger diver. My experience is that buoyancy and diving in warm ocean water in a 3mm is a breeze compared to low vis cold fresh water drysuit diving.

 

[gcbryan]

Another thought on this whole number of dives thing.

A LOT of my dives have BT of an hour. One was an hour and fourty minutes. Some would count my hour dives as three, and my longest dive as five! I could have certainly surface for long enough on each dive to turn it into more to count if that was my goal.

It seems that we judge the wrong thing. Who has more experience, the guy who has assisted OW students in checkout dives for 15 minitues at a pop counting each dive as 1 and hanging on a platform, or the guy who spends an hour UW per dive diving OW and doing OW ascents and safety stops without a platform or line?

Seems to me we make more out of the number of dives when really diving different conditions, different depths, different exposure situations and getting max BT really makes one a stronger diver. My experience is that buoyancy and diving in warm ocean water in a 3mm is a breeze compared to low vis cold fresh water drysuit diving.

I think the point is that too many DM's have too little experience in actually diving. Short dives assisting with OW checkouts is not really diving and getting max bottom time is not really the point either. Going out and doing dives in varied locations, conditions, navigating, leading, planning dives, this is what counts.

My main point is that many if not most divers who become DM's aren't really interested in diving but are interested in teaching or in collecting cards. If you are really into diving why would you want to be a DM? You will spend nights in a pool and most weekends in 30 feet of water checking OW students out. You will not have time to dive. Most DM's I have met silt up the environment that they are in, have lights hanging and dragging all over the place, don't know many local dive sites unless it is a checkout site or unless they are following someone else.

Many are impressed with themselves only because they feel they are experienced but only in comparison to those they hang out with (as yet uncertified OW students).

Go on any boat dive (outside warm water vacation spots) and the worst divers on the boat will be those that are also DM's.

 

[D_B]

I would separate the not ready for DM crowd from the not ready for AOW, Rescue people. DMs are diving professionals, and should have the skills/experience to back it up. I was one of the 20/60 DMs... and you could tell. Luckily I got a mentor who taught me to become a dive professional, and got me through instructor. Was it a mistake to become a DM that early? Maybe, but with my buddy's help. I think I turned into a pretty decent instructor.

As far as the AOW/Rescue progression... the earlier the better, I just think the names for the course's are deceiving. Look at what you actually do in AOW; a navigation, night, "deep" and a couple of optional dives. Nothing really "advanced", just more experience diving with an instructor. As a former instructor/potential buddy, I would much rather dive with someone on their 10th dive who is an AOW than someone who was just diving after OW. As far as Rescue goes, if I remember correctly, (haven't taught the class in a while), most of the skills are on the surface. Again, the more experience with a dive professional, the better. These skills shouldn't be in the hands of only a few "elite" divers.

Now if you really want to get me going, tell me that I should be respecting a PADI Master Diver. While their skills should be a little higher than most, really all a PADI Master Diver is, is a person who spent a bunch of money on over priced specialties (What the heck is a Night Diver Specialty?)

I could be one of those people referred to in the highlighted text, including the number of dives, and why I took those classes. (although with rescue I also wanted to be able safely dive with my friend thats never dove cold, wetsuit, kelp, before) I could not agree more with your statments on when & why you should take them
I also agree that too many people seem to think that if they have the card (any of them) that they must be good .. A DM card does not a DM make (any more than my rescue card, make's me a rescue diver)
If I ever take the DM course it will be because I want to be a better diver .. just like the reason I took my other classes

 

[fishb0y]

I think the point is that too many DM's have too little experience in actually diving. Short dives assisting with OW checkouts is not really diving and getting max bottom time is not really the point either. Going out and doing dives in varied locations, conditions, navigating, leading, planning dives, this is what counts.

My main point is that many if not most divers who become DM's aren't really interested in diving but are interested in teaching or in collecting cards. If you are really into diving why would you want to be a DM? You will spend nights in a pool and most weekends in 30 feet of water checking OW students out. You will not have time to dive. Most DM's I have met silt up the environment that they are in, have lights hanging and dragging all over the place, don't know many local dive sites unless it is a checkout site or unless they are following someone else.

Many are impressed with themselves only because they feel they are experienced but only in comparison to those they hang out with (as yet uncertified OW students).

Go on any boat dive (outside warm water vacation spots) and the worst divers on the boat will be those that are also DM's.

Yes and No...
I agree that alot of DMs have too little experience and are just collecting cards, but I disagree that they are as bad as you are saying. If that is the type of DM you are used to, go to another shop/charter, they obviously do not care about the shop/charter's image. A DM candidate looking like that is one thing... that person is still learning. Anyone else means trouble, which is what this thread was originally trying to get to.

As a certifying instructor, I see a DM that I certify as being someone who I would eventually want instructing one of my loved ones. If they have piss-poor skills as a DM, then I failed them as an instructor.

 

[gcbryan]

Yes and No...
I agree that alot of DMs have too little experience and are just collecting cards, but I disagree that they are as bad as you are saying. If that is the type of DM you are used to, go to another shop/charter, they obviously do not care about the shop/charter's image. A DM candidate looking like that is one thing... that person is still learning. Anyone else means trouble, which is what this thread was originally trying to get to.

As a certifying instructor, I see a DM that I certify as being someone who I would eventually want instructing one of my loved ones. If they have piss-poor skills as a DM, then I failed them as an instructor.

I don't use DM's. The charters I go on don't use DM's. I'm just saying that when I'm diving the worse divers that I personally observe are those that have DM cards. When I see them they usually aren't acting in a DM capacity. I did help a local dive shop recently with a couple of DM training dives and wasn't impressed either.

 

[Cacia]

I apologized to the Coast Guard...doesn't anybody care?