DIR for recreational divers?

[chrpai]

detroit diver once bubbled...



Just another skill to know. Certainly can't hurt knowing it, can it?

What is the downside to knowing how to turn on/off your valves?

The only harm that I can see coming of it, would be if it adds task loading / confusion to the decision making process of a diver in trouble.

For example..... situation occurs, diver goes for valve drill instead of air share or ascent and dies. Do you blame the diver for not sufficently practicing the skill to be able to execute it under stress, or do you say he should taken a different action that would have been faster or easier?

 

[SeaJay]

chrpai once bubbled...


I'm a single tank diver, please tell me how shutting down my tank is going to help me with a blown HP hose or a freeflowing reg that won't quit.

I'm a single tank diver too.

Being able to reach my valves would lessen my stress level considerably.

In the case of a blown hp hose, of course I would signal to my buddy OOA and then shut down the valve. This would enable me to fix the problem to a certain extent and allow control to return at depth. From there, the next step would be for my buddy to decide to either thumb the dive, or swim to a location where an ascent would be safer, such as on an upline. With no jet of gas coming from the back of my head, certainly the task loading would be considerably less.

Ditto for the freflowing reg; although I would be able to feather my valve so as to save enough gas for a safe ascent.

No doubt in both cases I would want to have gas donated to me; however, there would be one more option on the freeflowing reg scenario.

You mention task loading as a reason not to shut down the valve... I believe that shutting down the valve would be an improvement in the task loading situation, even if purely psychological.

Additionally, shutting off the valve would at least allow me to prevent water from entering my tank, which would be bad for the tank in a variety of ways.

I've actually witnessed the donation of a first stage; a diver's first puked, and another diver literally took the second first stage off of his doubles set and attached it to the inflicted diver's rig, effectively fixing the situation.

Not that I would recommend that practice, of course... Water enters the first stage, the donating diver was now without a second first stage, etc... But the dive was immediately aborted, and both divers were able to ascend without having to donate.

Sure its a great option for people with doubles, but for a single tank diver? Do you really want him contemplating if he should reach for his valve or do you want him going for his pony, or his buddy, or for CESA ectera...

I'm not suggesting that the diver use the manipulation of the valve in lieu of receiving gas from his buddy, but yes, I would "want him" to be able to manipulate any part of his gear for any reason at any time. I can assure you that *I* want that.

And yes ONCE I entered the water without a fully opened valve. It was during AOW with 5 dives under my belt. I calmly signled to my buddy ( instructor ) something wrong. The needle was moving ony my SPG when I was breathing and I didn't know what that meant yet.

Good thing your buddy was there, eh?

I've been taught the buddy system to a degree that is currently the standard in the industry. I do not believe that valve manipulation is a substitute for good buddy skills.

That said, I also believe that utter reliance on your buddy isn't a good thing. What if you get separated somehow? What if the vis is low and you lose him, even briefly? What if your buddy's in serious trouble and he's relying on you for help?

I firmly believe that both divers should be not only independent, but able to offer assistance to each other at any time. This is different from the thought process that your buddy is going to make up for your shortcomings - which is what I feel "not being able to manipulate your own gear" is.

He signled share air, which I did. Then as a team he adjusted my valve, I switched back to my reg, we did a ok back and forth and went on. We were in about 20' of water when that happened and I could have just as easily ascended. This is No-D recreational diving after all.

Recreational dive limits are 130', on an NDL dive. If this situation had occurred at 130', and you knew that you couldn't "just as easily have ascended," would it have gone as well?

 

[Northeastwrecks]

chrpai once bubbled...


So is checking your air before entering the water, entering the water with your BC inflated, and knowing how to drop your weights. No valve drill is needed for single tank recreational divers.

Incorrect. Learning additional skills increases your options. Moreover, your list of potential situations in which you might need to manipulate a valve is deliberately and artificially restrictive. You simply ignore the fact that you might also need to turn it on instead of off.

Certainly you should check your valves and your equipment before jumping in. Certainly, the first thing DM's learn from me is "don't touch my gear unless I ask you to do so."

However, if you can't reach your valve, then you can't turn it on if you made a mistake, if you left it partially on and it fails at depth, or if some dumb boat monkey or other diver touches your gear by mistake. You can't deal with a situation if you're doing a boat dive in a 4 - 5 foot sea (not uncommon up here) and you slip before you're ready.

In addition, it would come in handy if you had a free flow. Personally, once I started sharing with my buddy, I'd turn off the valve to conserve the gas and, depending on the circumstances, turn it back on to see if it was working again or if we needed the gas. Either way, it beats letting it vent into the ocean where it does no good for anyone.

Finally, if I did blow a hose, I'd also turn it off once I had secured a backup. Personally, I'd rather not listen to the noise.

Saying that you don't need to know how to correct a problem because you never make the mistake that causes the problem is like saying that you don't need a spare tire because you never have a flat. Except that not having a spare probably won't kill you.

Regardless, valve drills are simple. The only people I've seen having difficulty with them are: (1) people with very well developed upper arms and shoulders; (2) people who lack flexibility; and (3) people who think that the tank valve belongs in the small of their back while the tank bangs on the back of their knees. All of these situations can be corrected.

Your real issue is that GUE teaches it, right?

BTW, before you ask, you have an absolute right to your opinion. The fact that it is wrong doesn't lessen your right to hold it.

 

[Big-t-2538]

chrpai once bubbled...


I'm a single tank diver, please tell me how shutting down my tank is going to help me with a blown HP hose or a freeflowing reg that won't quit.

Sure its a great option for people with doubles, but for a single tank diver? Do you really want him contemplating if he should reach for his valve or do you want him going for his pony, or his buddy, or for CESA ectera...

O.K...let's say you're making a normal quarry dive in 80' of water...it's cold, it's dark...things go good for about 20 minutes until you run across a silt cloud....your reg free flows because you get a little anxious and over-breath the thing.

Now you're a little low on gas, and the reg is dumping air...your buddy is a little bit slow to respond b/c now viz has gone to zero.....frankly, I'd like to be able to shut my valve down and conserve whatever gas I've got. I know if I continue to let it free-flow I'm going to have a whole lot less chance of getting back to the surface, or over to my buddy for an air share.

Go ahead do your cesa or whatever...I'll take it nice and easy on the way up, and manipulate my valave as I search for my buddy...who at this point is probably already searching for me.

 

[Big-t-2538]

chrpai once bubbled...


For example..... situation occurs, diver goes for valve drill instead of air share or ascent and dies. Do you blame the diver for not sufficently practicing the skill to be able to execute it under stress, or do you say he should taken a different action that would have been faster or easier?

how does a diver die doing a valve drill conserving gas

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Big-t-2538 once bubbled...
how does a diver die doing a valve drill conserving gas

Poor training is the first thing that comes to mind, i.e., forgetting that the valve rotates in both directions, or trying a shutdown for the first time in an actual emergency because they read an internet thread where someone claimed that the skill was unnecessary if they only had one tank.

Remember, never underestimate the ability of an idiot to discover a creative way to die.

 

[Big-t-2538]

Northeastwrecks once bubbled...
forgetting that the valve rotates in both directions

Shoot...you mean you can turn it on too???Damn is that another "secret"

 

[detroit diver]

chrpai once bubbled...


The only harm that I can see coming of it, would be if it adds task loading / confusion to the decision making process of a diver in trouble.

For example..... situation occurs, diver goes for valve drill instead of air share or ascent and dies. Do you blame the diver for not sufficently practicing the skill to be able to execute it under stress, or do you say he should taken a different action that would have been faster or easier?

As was stated so well before I got back to this thread:

Having the skill gives you options and confidence to make the right decision.

NOT having the skill give you nothing. Nothing but stress from your limited options.

Use the tools that you have. And increase the size of your toolbox when you can.

 

[Dan Gibson]

What does it hurt if the single tank diver can perform this drill? What good does it do by not being able to reach the valve?

Did anyone mention a diver getting knocked off the side of a RIB by a wave while gearing up before anyone else is ready or you have inflated your wing/bc? You admitted that you once went in with it not fulled turned on. What if this happened in the situation above?

It sounds to me like you are the one with their head in the sand. It's a good drill, period.

chrpai once bubbled...


Who has their head in the sand?

 

[chrpai]

SeaJay once bubbled...


Good thing your buddy was there, eh?

Recreational dive limits are 130', on an NDL dive. If this situation had occurred at 130', and you knew that you couldn't "just as easily have ascended," would it have gone as well?

First off it doesn't matter that he was there, I could have easily done a CESA from that depth. Second off I don't dive to depths that I can't CESA from without bringing a redundant air supply so it really wouldn't make any different.