Help with my first DC? Invest now or spend more later?

[Peter_C]

Wireless transmitters are an entanglement hazard from kelp and fishing line. Unless you have been snagged by something, you have more experience to gain. Air integration is not needed, and even if you do have it, a pressure gauge is nice to have when setting up, and is more reliable. Yes I do have hundreds of dives with an AI computer. Now I use a simple Scubapro Aladdin set in gauge mode.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

That's all great but your prices are way off for everything and this guy is not even a tech diver. You obviously don't know anything about diving as a normal human being, you are too "advanced" lol.



Seriously it's almost like every tech diver is obsessed with gear. Buy something that works OP and don't get pulled into spending $900 on some crazy hydreliox 1200ft verified computer that lacks the best part about having a modern computer: wireless.

---------- Post added July 28th, 2014 at 07:22 AM ----------

And a wireless D4i with transmitter can be had used for $500. Please tell me how your cumbersome tube and giant box are better for a new diver?

Let's set aside the debate about whether AI is the best part of modern DC technology, or a solution in search of a problem that gives you a klunky, battery powered thing to stick on your 1st stage. Let's also set aside whether the OP currently needs a DC capable of handling trimix and fixed-setpoint CCR dives - he plainly doesn't, but he also said he's considering the 'buy once, cry once' route (which makes more sense than one might think, when you consider how long current SW Pursuits and Predators have been in service, how little the core tech has changed in the Petrel, and the resale value on a Predator or Petrel vs. other computer brands).

Let's focus instead on the overall best computer for the diving he's doing now: personally, I think the Petrel is it for reasons relating to:

(1) well-designed battery compartment (you laugh, but try changing the battery on a Liquivision or even a Predator...Petrel nailed this one) and eating all flavors of AA;

(2) very easy and user configurable U/I when set to either OC Tech or Rec modes;

(3) flexible computer that both requires the diver to understandthe basics of diving theory to use it, and, that won't try to outthink the user...roll off the boat without setting your Petrel to whatever nitrox mix you're diving, it's NBD. Changing your conservatism setting on the fly because you had a deeper/harder dive than you planned, it's NBD.

4) Shearwater's got some of the best service/support in the business, both in terms of free upgrades to firmware being provided with regularity as they refine the product based on their own diving and user feedback, and in terms of them bending over backwards to fix problems when things break; Suunto...not so much.

(5) the screen is amazing, and I actually like the somewhat chunky size of the Petrel. The Predator I thought was too big and had that steel mounting plate...Petrel feels good to me, but that's entirely subjective. The amazing clarity and brightness of the Petrel screen...not as subjective.

He's talking about spending $500 for a cheaper rec computer, or $1,000 for something he could take through tech, so he's not limited by budget. A Petrel is $850 new retail, or ~$100 less if you can get a dealer to cut you a good deal. The issue is whether the few hundred dollar difference between a Petrel and a nice AI rec computer is going to buy him something better for his present use. I think it will. If he'd doesn't really like electronic compass and AI, he'll probably think so too. If the SPG hose drives him crazy, and getting the right length and/or running it over his shoulder bundled with his LPI hose doesn't fix the issue, sure, he'll want AI.

 

[2cold4california]

Let's set aside the debate about whether AI is the best part of modern DC technology, or a solution in search of a problem that gives you a klunky, battery powered thing to stick on your 1st stage. Let's also set aside whether the OP currently needs a DC capable of handling trimix and fixed-setpoint CCR dives - he plainly doesn't, but he also said he's considering the 'buy once, cry once' route (which makes more sense than one might think, when you consider how long current SW Pursuits and Predators have been in service, how little the core tech has changed in the Petrel, and the resale value on a Predator or Petrel vs. other computer brands).

Let's focus instead on the overall best computer for the diving he's doing now: personally, I think the Petrel is it for reasons relating to:

(1) well-designed battery compartment (you laugh, but try changing the battery on a Liquivision or even a Predator...Petrel nailed this one) and eating all flavors of AA;

(2) very easy and user configurable U/I when set to either OC Tech or Rec modes;

(3) flexible computer that both requires the diver to understandthe basics of diving theory to use it, and, that won't try to outthink the user...roll off the boat without setting your Petrel to whatever nitrox mix you're diving, it's NBD. Changing your conservatism setting on the fly because you had a deeper/harder dive than you planned, it's NBD.

4) Shearwater's got some of the best service/support in the business, both in terms of free upgrades to firmware being provided with regularity as they refine the product based on their own diving and user feedback, and in terms of them bending over backwards to fix problems when things break; Suunto...not so much.

(5) the screen is amazing, and I actually like the somewhat chunky size of the Petrel. The Predator I thought was too big and had that steel mounting plate...Petrel feels good to me, but that's entirely subjective. The amazing clarity and brightness of the Petrel screen...not as subjective.

He's talking about spending $500 for a cheaper rec computer, or $1,000 for something he could take through tech, so he's not limited by budget. A Petrel is $850 new retail, or ~$100 less if you can get a dealer to cut you a good deal. The issue is whether the few hundred dollar difference between a Petrel and a nice AI rec computer is going to buy him something better for his present use. I think it will. If he'd doesn't really like electronic compass and AI, he'll probably think so too. If the SPG hose drives him crazy, and getting the right length and/or running it over his shoulder bundled with his LPI hose doesn't fix the issue, sure, he'll want AI.

I don't disagree that the petrel is qualitatively a much better dive computer than a D4 and perhaps this guy may need that in the future. I know from personal experience that wireless AI can improve the quality of a recreational diving experience, even if just on ergonomics.


There are many tech diving situations where a D4 or other rec diving comp won't be up to the job and the petrel will. But, in general, I think a wireless AI wrist comp would provide a better experience.


Keep in mind that the purchase of the D4 doesn't preclude purchase and simultaneous use of a petrel later. That's actually a perfect setup as the watch comp is small and provides easy access and the petrel can be used as a backup with an SPG (assuming two HP ports which almost any tech rig would have). The D4 would still provide you with Stuff the petrel can't and vice versa. So you can have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

But, in general, I think a wireless AI wrist comp would provide a better experience.

I've listed my points above as to why the Petrel is likely to be a better rec computer (basically because everything for which you look at or interact with a dive computer...the Petrel does it better) - let's hear your premises for the conclusion I just quoted. If it's just "your air pressure is on your wrist", that may be important enough for you to tip the balance.

But given the ease of checking air pressure with a well-configured SPG (and that may be clipped at the waist on a 24" hose, or it may be the same hose clipped under the arm and on a shoulder d-ring, or it may be a much shorter hose bundled with the LPI hose and resting the SPG right above the LPI, or whatever works for someone's rig), and the intermittant AI connection headaches that can occur and either require ending a dive early or carrying both gas monitoring systems...I doubt you'd be in the majority. Personally, the only thing I miss about AI is the dive logging aspect, and I don't miss that very much.

So, I'm going to assume you think there's more about a D4 or similar computer that will make diving it a "better experience" than just the AI. What would that be?

 

[2cold4california]

But, in general, I think a wireless AI wrist comp would provide a better experience.
QUOTE]

I've listed my points above as to why the Petrel is likely to be a better rec computer - let's hear your premises for the conclusion I just quoted. If it's just "your air pressure is on your wrist", that may be important enough for you to tip the balance.

But given the ease of checking air pressure with a well-configured SPG (and that may be clipped at the waist on a 24" hose, or it may be the same hose clipped under the arm and on a shoulder d-ring, or it may be a much shorter hose bundled with the LPI hose and resting the SPG right above the LPI, or whatever works for someone's rig), and the intermittant AI connection headaches that can occur and either require ending a dive early or carrying both gas monitoring systems...I doubt you'd be in the majority. Personally, the only thing I miss about AI is the dive logging aspect, and I don't miss that very much.

So, I'm going to assume you think there's more about a D4 or similar computer that will make diving it a "better experience" than just the AI. What would that be?

I mean you say "just" on your wrist but that is huge. Have you ever used a wireless wrist computer for normal (<130ft), average rec diving? The loss of those hoses and the difference in ease of simply glancing at your wrist for all necessary information is very freeing. Ergonomically it is in every way superior to your petrel, and it's cheaper to boot, AND you can still get a petrel later and use them both in tandem.

Your argument for a petrel is akin to these computer forums where you ask what somebody needs and it's some insane $4000 machine that doesn't even have a monitor.

My points, to be concise, are as follows:

1) The D4 is cheaper
2) the D4 meets all his CURRENT needs
3) The D4 is wireless (huge)
4) The D4 is easier to use
5) The D4 actually provides AI (huge x10)
6) The D4 doesn't require you to buy an SPG
7) The D4 is smaller, lighter, and doesn't make you look like a pretentious douchebag every time you explain how it's in every way better than whatever another passing diver may have, despite the fact that they never even solicited your commentary.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

I mean you say "just" on your wrist but that is huge. Have you ever used a wireless wrist computer for normal (<130ft), average rec diving? The loss of those hoses and the difference in ease of simply glancing at your wrist for all necessary information is very freeing. Ergonomically it is in every way superior to your petrel, and it's cheaper to boot, AND you can still get a petrel later and use them both in tandem.

Your argument for a petrel is akin to these computer forums where you ask what somebody needs and it's some insane $4000 machine that doesn't even have a monitor.

My points, to be concise, are as follows:

1) The D4 is cheaper
2) the D4 meets all his CURRENT needs
3) The D4 is wireless (huge)
4) The D4 is easier to use
5) The D4 actually provides AI (huge x10)
6) The D4 doesn't require you to buy an SPG
7) The D4 is smaller, lighter, and doesn't make you look like a pretentious douchebag every time you explain how it's in every way better than whatever another passing diver may have, despite the fact that they never even solicited your commentary.

I can't remember the last time I even looked at my SPG during the kind of dive you describe, so there's that. And since I can see the SPG just as easily as I can see my wrists...I think you and I experience dive ergonomics differently.

For what it's worth, I clip the SPG to my left hip if I'm not carrying a large slung tank on that side, and can see it just by glancing back. If it's a deeper dive and I either want the thing right in my face because narcosis/speed of depletion at depth and/or I have a bunch of tanks slung on the left, I'll run it under the arm, clipped at the shoulder, and can see it just by glancing down. On my CCR, I run the SPGs for the unit over the shoulders and clip them off...the left side one with the LPI hoses. Again, just glance down, no grabbing the SPG required.

The D4 is somewhat, though not radically, cheaper. You wouldn't have caught me suggesting a $1200 Predator for rec divers, but SW has changed the Petrel's relevance to rec divers by making it a lot more competitive on price (we're seeing lower-level players like SP drop the price of less competitive computers like the Luna lately, and I suspect the Petrel's price proximity is to thank). For the OP, though, I don't see why a midrange rec computer's the way to go; either get something super cheap with a gauge mode, or go all the way.

Indeed, a $200 DG03 or similar would "meet his needs" too. But he's already said he's not looking for bargain basement, so this isn't all that important.

The D4 isn't easier to use by any standard of which I'm aware...the U/I on each computer is very different and the Petrel's is more intuitive. Try reading a manual for both and see. In terms of use while diving, the Petrel is going to offer more data in an easier to see manner without hitting any buttons, even more data more easily accessed by hitting buttons, and will allow for making changes while diving that can range from nice to safety-related. How, aside from AI, is a D4 "easier to use"?

I think your (3) and (5) points are the same...we get it, you think SPGs are a real problem to use and AI is great. There's nothing wrong with that, though I think it says more about your SPG configuration and diving than it does about much else...but again, the OP said he doesn't care about AI.

(6) amuses me...just a bit ago you said he could make up for the connection reliability part of AI by having an SPG.

(7) is interesting. The OP specifically asked about the Petrel, so you must have had some kind of bad experience with tech divers yourself? Personally, I usually go solo when I'm on a rec boat and never discuss my gear with anyone. If someone wants to know what I think of what I'm diving, they can ask.

 

[2cold4california]

I can't remember the last time I even looked at my SPG during the kind of dive you describe, so there's that. And since I can see the SPG just as easily as I can see my wrists...I think you and I experience dive ergonomics differently.

I have no doubt there are divers for whom experience and intuition preclude an SPG or wireless PDC. Is OP like you? I know I cannot dive like that. At some point I may be able to but I don't buy stuff based on what "may" happen "someday". I buy what is necessary and what provides the best experience for me today.

 

[commitch]

I can't remember the last time I even looked at my SPG during the kind of dive you describe, so there's that.

And that's probably much less than 1% of divers, so there's that.

And since I can see the SPG just as easily as I can see my wrists...I think you and I experience dive ergonomics differently.

But isn't that just it, everyone is different. I'm cool with people stating their opinions, but stating personal preference like it's fact is problematic.

Some people like AI, some don't. I like it. Some dive buddies I have, including some cave divers who use it on their recreation setups (not their cave setups), like it because all their info is on one screen on their wrist vs multiple locations. None dive solely with AI, they all have brass and glass backups.

I will say for a brand new recreational diver, in my own opinion, the Petrel is missing one important feature, audible alarms. New divers aren't always the best at monitoring their depth or NDLs. Should they need alarms? Of course not, but do some? Absolutely. They start following that free swimming eel on the Cayman wall and find themselves deeper than expected quick. For tech divers, it makes sense for them not to have them, you are expected to be on top of things.

I'm sure I'll catch crap for this post. Doesn't mean it's bad info.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

And that's probably much less than 1% of divers, so there's that.But isn't that just it, everyone is different. I'm cool with people stating their opinions, but stating personal preference like it's fact is problematic.

Some people like AI, some don't. I like it. Some dive buddies I have, including some cave divers who use it on their recreation setups (not their cave setups), like it because all their info is on one screen on their wrist vs multiple locations. None dive solely with AI, they all have brass and glass backups.

I will say for a brand new recreational diver, in my own opinion, the Petrel is missing one important feature, audible alarms. New divers aren't always the best at monitoring their depth or NDLs. Should they need alarms? Of course not, but do some? Absolutely. They start following that free swimming eel on the Cayman wall and find themselves deeper than expected quick. For tech divers, it makes sense for them not to have them, you are expected to be on top of things.

I'm sure I'll catch crap for this post. Doesn't mean it's bad info.

Ooo, if there's something I hate worse than having a Buick sticking off my 1st stage, it's audible alarms.

But to answer your question, no, new divers shouldn't have them. The consequences for violating the "rules" under normal conditions just aren't that big a deal...ascend at 50fpm for a bit instead of 30fpm, or hit a 1.45pO2, or wind up at 150'...doesn't matter. As long as you correct yourself within a reasonable time, which nobody who belongs under water needs an audible alarm to do: basic OW divers are also expected to be on top of things, and have more reason to do so than most divers. So I say audible alarms are unnecessary for the minor dangers.

And if you're doing something that should really merit an alarm, which I think of as something that is inherently dangerous...a 3.0pO2, blowing straight to the surface from 130' after significant BT, going to 300' on an AL80 without any other redundancy or deco gas...you're either so panicked the alarm won't matter, or, you're so mentally checked out that I have no idea why you're diving.

If someone decides audible alarms are their preference because of 'hey, better to have it and not need it, but maybe it'll help and can't hurt' thinking...that's cool (please don't make me listen to your computer though...people with alarms need to dive the way the box wants, not the way they want). But I would say that calling it an important safety feature for a new diver's computer is...wrong.

Finally, my point isn't that because I can see my SPG easily, so can everyone else no matter what. My point is that for most divers, it's really not that hard to get an SPG set up so that it's easy to see without messing with it. If someone prefers AI anyway, that's cool. But I see no reason to let the unqualified claim that SPGs are ergonomically difficult pass without challenge. For most people, they just aren't.

 

[commitch]

But people who are underwater and those that belong underwater are a fairly different set of people. That's the problem. It's fine you think it's wrong just like it's fine that I think it's right. I respect your opinion. Too many on this board don't know how to respect others' opinions.