How to pick a BP/W?

[Rhone Man]

If we are going to hijack threads, I'd welcome experienced views on the relative advantages and disadvantages of donut wings?

Tobin, I notice on your site you offer both?

 

[fire_diver]

This is why. This topic rarely (if it ever has) does anything other than result in ridiculous statements, name calling, and bickering. And why I recommend they be directed toward one of the many threads already out there on the topic.


If you're implying that the use of an integrated inflater/octo is as dangerous and stupid as filling your scuba tank with with a toxic gas, you've just illustrated my point.

Quite frankly, you are the only one getting bent out of shape here. Do you have something constructove to add or are your just baiting for a fight?

 

[DevonDiver]

If we are going to hijack threads, I'd welcome experienced views on the relative advantages and disadvantages of donut wings?

I use a Halcyon Eclipse for single tank. The greatest benefit I notice with the donut design is that it gives you the ability to easily migrate the air around the wing (by momntarily shifting your trim). This means I can dump air easier/quicker from a horizontal postion and I can hang around in strange positions (attitudes) when taking photos.

The only drawback I have noticed is that the donut design can lead to extra wear-and-tear on the lower portion of the wing (i.e. when standing in tank racks on the boat).,

I have yet to try a donut wing with doubles, so I won't comment on whether it brings any advantages with that configuration.

 

[cool_hardware52]

I use a Halcyon Eclipse for single tank. The greatest benefit I notice with the donut design is that it gives you the ability to easily migrate the air around the wing (by momntarily shifting your trim). This means I can dump air easier/quicker from a horizontal postion and I can hang around in strange positions (attitudes) when taking photos.

There is no gas in the lower arc of a donut wing for a horizontally trimmed diver.

Gas goes to the high point in a wing, and the absolutely lowest part of a donut wing for a horizontally trimmed diver is the part trapped between the lower end of the cylinder and the diver's rear end.

To actually shift gas through the lower arc of a donut wing requires the diver be about 45 degrees heads down.

Tobin

 

[FishOutUvH2O]

I wasn't. It was just a (tongue-in-cheek) analogy to illustrate the benefits of discussion, where side-issues may be raised that contribute to the overall topic.

Quite often, people with limited diving experience can fail to see the bigger picture and there is some benefit to be drawn from the experiences of others.

Novice divers, in the 50-200 dive bracket, tend to get settled with an equipment configuration, but have yet to gain the experience to fully appreciate the problems that may still be inherent with that configuration, or the refinements that could be made to it.

In this instance, the OP raised a question about the selection of a BP/W. He mentioned using an AIR2. Given that an AIR2 is a component within the BP/W, other users have expressed their opinions on how that equipment choice could be improved, whilst also quoting reasons why an AIR2 may not be the optimum choice for use with a BP/W. As such, they seem valid contributions to the thread.

*please note, I have yet to display any personal opinions on the use of AIR2...I am only noting the validity of sharing our personal opinions and experiences (if justified) for the benefit of the initial debate.

Ok, fair enough. So, to further the discussion with an emphasis on the BP/W, and because I'm perpetually curious. . .

Since many of the arguments against an integrated inflater are against the device itself, they would apply to every type of BC, not just a BP/W. So, with that in mind, what advantages specific to a BP/W are, or might be, negated by the use of an integrated inflater? Tobin mentioned the possibility of a longer hose dangling down posing an entanglement hazard. I would say possibly increased drag. What are some others?

Quite frankly, you are the only one getting bent out of shape here. Do you have something constructove to add or are your just baiting for a fight?

Wow! Bad day at the office? I can't imagine anyone reading what I wrote and how I put it coming to the conclusion that I'm "bent out of shape" and "baiting for a fight." And based on the other responses directed toward my posts, you're the only one. Everyone else seemed to have a reasonable, non-attacking response.

 

[elan]

Ok, fair enough. So, to further the discussion with an emphasis on the BP/W, and because I'm perpetually curious. . .

Since many of the arguments against an integrated inflater are against the device itself, they would apply to every type of BC, not just a BP/W. So, with that in mind, what advantages specific to a BP/W are, or might be, negated by the use of an integrated inflater? Tobin mentioned the possibility of a longer hose dangling down posing an entanglement hazard. I would say possibly increased drag. What are some others?

I hated long inflator on my Mares BCD as it was hanging down and and was getting always on the way and was always tangling with anything that was on the D-Rings. It's not BP/W specific but just why long inflator is not my kind of liking.
But for Air2 long inflator is a must.

BP/W gives excellent chance to streamline your setup and make everything nice and neat. Why spoil it.

 

[jtpwils]

Back to BP/W considerations. This may be a dumb question but I've noticed a lot of folks suggesting SS OR Aluminum wings, and diving SS plates with AL tanks or AL plates with Steel tanks but why is it (AL or SS) and not (AL or AL+STA)? The weight is still evenly distributed front to back but is in line with the tank rather than across the back. It would seem to me that you get the benefits of both types without having to have two different harnesses or refitting the harness if you only use an aluminum plate and add weight using other methods?

 

[rstofer]

Well, heck, I'm not convinced I like the short inflator hose. It's a work in progress. All of the issues are mine: fouling the inflator hose with my snorkel (yes, I know; ditch the snorkel), my personal awkwardness with grasping the inflator with thick gloves. I'll get it.

I think I have posted a fairly balanced view of the Air II. It was on my jacket style BC for 20 years - it still is. But I bought that outfit when I was in Singapore diving in a T shirt and shorts (well, to be honest, I wore a Lycra skin). There is essentially no change in buoyancy from top to bottom so you don't have to vent your BC as you ascend. Then too, back in the bad old days, the ascent rate was somewhat faster.

But now I dive in cold water and venting on ascent is a continuous process. When I consider passing my primary to a disabled buddy and breathing from an Air II, I realize that during the rescue I need to control both BCs. But I have my inflator device in my mouth. Breathing the air from the BC is bad so, best case, I have to take my regulator out of my mouth to vent the BC. Hope I don't hold my breath! I still have to fool around and control my buddy's buoyancy in some manner. God help us if one or both of us are wearing dryduits. Fact is, I don't own a drysuit so I have no real experience working with one.

So, given that the Air II complicates rescue and seems like a bad idea for cold water. I just went with the necklaced octo and long hose.

Time goes on and configurations evolve. I'm not convinced about the 5' hose. That too is a work in progress. I don't do well with change.

Richard

 

[rstofer]

Back to BP/W considerations. This may be a dumb question but I've noticed a lot of folks suggesting SS OR Aluminum wings, and diving SS plates with AL tanks or AL plates with Steel tanks but why is it (AL or SS) and not (AL or AL+STA)? The weight is still evenly distributed front to back but is in line with the tank rather than across the back. It would seem to me that you get the benefits of both types without having to have two different harnesses or refitting the harness if you only use an aluminum plate and add weight using other methods?

We went through this on another forum. I got the crap beat out of me for advocating ditchable weight. In cold water, wearing a wetsuit, diving with a SS plate and a steel tank makes sense. I still have 20# of ditchable weight. If I would set my weight the way Tobin suggests, I could get down to 12# of lead. I'll get there...

But, the diver needs to understand how negative they are at the start of a dive and how they will recover from a wing failure. Yes, I know, wing failures never happen. Unless the elbow breaks off when you jump from the boat. Now you're heading right to the bottom, assuming conventional weighting. With Tobin's scheme, you still won't sink! Or, you won't be so negative you can't just fin back up.

In warm water (in my view, don't bother flaming me), in order to have any ditchable weight, the backplate should be something other than SS. Aluminum or kydex come to mind. Also, that steel tank becomes something of a liability because, if you do have a wing failure, you won't have any weight to ditch at the surface. You will always be negative. Yes, I like the Al 80 for warm water diving.

Now, I realize, there are divers that support the idea that ditchable weight is not required. I am not one of them.

What the heck, flame away! I'm not going to change my mind about ditchable weight.

Richard

 

[OldNSalty]

The entire weighting idea does worry me so this is something to consider. Right now I use AL 80's but would like to go to steel 100's. 6 to 8 pounds of weight is all I use and I hardly have to add air except when I am back on top waiting to climb back on the boat.