How to pick a BP/W?

[RAWalker]

Hey scuba127 I've got a question for you?
What method did you use to don and doff your rig in the pool?
Chicken wing or raise your arms and drop under or (swim into for donning)?
Would you still be able to safely do it if your surfaced and found yourself in a heavy chop?
Remember that being pushed about in chop the chicken wing will be significantly more difficult and the arm raised duck under is a good way to get knocked out.
This is why many divers believe in having at least one shoulder release. It allows you to stay on the surface slide out of your gear sideways and maintain a grip and control of your rig.
It isn't a worry if you are confident you can chicken wing in rough water but in real life surface conditions can change rapidly and with little warning.

Tobin,
Even anecdotes deserve some attention when they make sense and fit the physics of the situation.
There are plenty of other manufacturers of dive gear that have been at it for as many or more years than you. This doesn't tell me whether you or they are better suited to suggest gear to me or anyone else. It is just an anecdote about your sales and if based on that I'd go with those that have higher sales numbers. Fortunately I understand that advise has to fit the situation and make sense. My prior post may apply to many looking at a BP&W even thought it differs from your advise and you do have more experience it may be a better fit for the situation and I expect those that realize it makes sense will take it over your advise.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Tobin,
Even anecdotes deserve some attention when they make sense and fit the physics of the situation.

Physics? You want to debate physics with me? You still haven't been able to make a cogent argument in support of your "strong belief" that wings of less than 30 lbs are unsafe.

There are plenty of other manufacturers of dive gear that have been at it for as many or more years than you.

Yes there are. Are any of these "other guys" recommending al plates as the perfect do it all back plate? Please don't confuse the opinion of a clerk at some LDS overstocked with aluminum plates with the position of a manufacturer.

This doesn't tell me whether you or they are better suited to suggest gear to me or anyone else. It is just an anecdote about your sales and if based on that I'd go with those that have higher sales numbers.

Study up on statistics please. Your sample size is **One** vs my sample size of thousands. Gee I wonder which one has a larger margin of error.....

Fortunately I understand that advise has to fit the situation and make sense.

Make sense? You have tirelessly defended using huge, dual purpose 45 lbs wing for single tanks. You continue to contend that wings smaller than 30 lbs lift are dangerous, and now you advocate lightweight backplates for all. None of these are mainstream positions. Your "contributions" serve mostly to confuse.

My prior post may apply to many looking at a BP&W even thought it differs from your advise and you do have more experience it may be a better fit for the situation and I expect those that realize it makes sense will take it over your advise.

I continue to participate in these public forums precisely because new divers deserve reliable information. Hopefully they will consider the source when trying to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I have a professional reputation to consider. I choose my words carefully, and I have to live with the consequences.

What about you?



Tobin

 

[DevonDiver]

Tobin,

Try not to get baited. Some people won't accept their limitations...and have a huge egos to inflate here on the forum.

God knows what a newbie diver hopes to accomplish by coming on the forum and trying to pass themselves off as some sort of dive guru. Just let it lie.... I think most people can identify troublemakers and egotists....

 

[4sak3n]

RAWalker's sig says it all Tobin.

Proper training is a tranfer [sic] of knowledge and experience. Unfortunately experience is no guarantee of knowledge. Unless you get trained properly you'll only be experienced at repeating mistakes.

 

[RAWalker]

Physics? You want to debate physics with me? You still haven't been able to make a cogent argument in support of your "strong belief" that wings of less than 30 lbs are unsafe.



Yes there are. Are any of these "other guys" recommending al plates as the perfect do it all back plate? Please don't confuse the opinion of a clerk at some LDS overstocked with aluminum plates with the position of a manufacturer.



Study up on statistics please. Your sample size is **One** vs my sample size of thousands. Gee I wonder which one has a larger margin of error.....



Make sense? You have tirelessly defended using huge, dual purpose 45 lbs wing for single tanks. You continue to contend that wings smaller than 30 lbs lift are dangerous, and now you advocate lightweight backplates for all. None of these are mainstream positions. Your "contributions" serve mostly to confuse.



I continue to participate in these public forums precisely because new divers deserve reliable information. Hopefully they will consider the source when trying to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I have a professional reputation to consider. I choose my words carefully, and I have to live with the consequences.

What about you?



Tobin

First what I did say is there is little reason not to have a wing with more lift capacity and that I see no reason to have a wing of less than 30# lift. But that was another thread all together.
In the case of a diver looking to make the smallest investment in a BP&W and get the most diverse use from it will require increased lift capacity for cold water environments.

Tell me... Is higher lift capacity dangerous?

I advocate having a wing with a reserve of lift capacity. The reason that I qualify the 45# bungie wing is it performs "reasonably well as a singles wing" for someone that may need the lift capacity so in this 1 wing and 1 plate choice it can handle the widest range of environments. All the way to diving twin AL80s.

Re-read I didn't say AL was the perfect plate I did say if you could only have 1 plate the lighter plate can be made heavier. So it can be made to suit more situations.

Can you make a given SS plate lighter? No, but we can compensate for the lighter plate with weights.

Are you claiming a OMS 45# bungie wing is unsafe as a singles wing?

In post #44 I stated:
"While I agree that is most configurations a SS plate makes sense"
"This will leave the diver with a rig that is less than optimal in most cases but also completely safe and reliable for the greatest range of conditions."

Remember the point was getting the most from 1 wing and 1 plate before you try to discredit someone be careful what the parameters are.

Before you jump and make yourself look foolish read the posts a bit more carefully after all you do have a professional reputation to consider!

 

[RAWalker]

Tobin,

Ignore him... he won't accept his limitations...and has a huge ego to inflate here on the forum.

God knows what a newbie diver hopes to accomplish by coming on the forum and trying to pass himself off as some sort of dive guru. Just let it lie.... I think most people have marked him out for what he is....

At least Tobin realizes he has a professional reputation to protect. Further his advise is solid for divers that are looking for an optimum rig to dive. He and I just disagree when it comes to divers looking to make an entry into BP&W on a tight budget. You on the other hand made yourself look less than professional last week on another thread and you just repeat the same mistakes. Oh and less than professional is about the nicest thing anyone that read the thread would say about your attitude.
So need I tell you where to take your attitude?

 

[it_mike]

Psst...RAW? Did you know that the two guys you're debating with each have over twenty times the experience in the water that you do?

Training is what you do to learn how to get experience. The real world doesn't always fit into a nice neat course binder. Think about it...

 

[TSandM]

I've used the strategy of traveling with a lighter plate, and adding weight at my destination, and it works fine for warm water diving. It would be very kludgy for cold water -- I add six pounds to the cambands for warm water diving, and trying to figure out how to add another five would be annoying and inconvenient.

I don't understand the fuss about wings, though. I dove a DSS 30 lb horseshoe wing for a couple of years, in cold water and warm. It was more lift than I needed in warm water, but not unmanageable; it was plenty of lift for my cold water setup in a single tank. I have subsequently acquired a 17 lb tropical wing, which I adore, but I didn't HAVE to have it.

On the other hand, it would be rare to require 45 lbs of more of lift for a single tank, even in cold water, and buying way more lift than you need and then having to bungie the wing down to avoid tacoing seems to me to be the wrong answer to the question.

 

[scuba127]

Hey, RAWalker here's your answer: I didn't don the rig in the pool. I set on our deck table and backed into it - like I would on a truck tailgate shore diving in Bonaire (where I do most of my diving). "Many" divers believe in having at least one shoulder release? Really?

 

[rstofer]

Well, I would sign up for the shoulder release. In fact, my two DSS rigs have the ProFit harnesses with release buckles on both sides.

I did try to re-rig one of them with a web harness and captive buckle on the left shoulder. Release the buckle and the strap gets several inches longer. But the web is still continuous. I didn't care for the loop. I never dove with it.

All of my other BP/Ws have one piece harnesses with no release buckles. They are a PITA. If I'm wearing my wetsuit, the web won't slide over my shoulder and down my arm. With new webbing and T-shirt diving in the pool, I am going to get cut by the webbing when I try to doff the rig on my X frame work stand.

A truck tailgate is nowhere near high enough. I need the shoulder straps above my shoulders when I try to get into the rig. So I have to crouch way down and risk another round of visits to the Chiropractor.

I understand the minimalist thing but I really don't like it. I view it like the King's clothes. We're supposed to like it because it's DIR and we all have to stand and salute it. I think the King is running around naked.

Richard