Is it a bad idea to dive with NO ditchable weights?

[Thalassamania]

Why not just add air to the BCD? Two seconds on the inflator would yield the same result as dropping weight and allows a controlled ascent, once the twitching stops.

You're right ... I answered too quickly and did not think that through.

 

[24940]

You're a class act, Thal.

 

[Thalassamania]

Too soon old ... too late smart. It's also an "old time diver" response, remember ... no BCs! Hell ... I still tend to add air to my BC by mouth (saves air, you know).

 

[Oddsnends]

For more specific scenarios I will defer to others:

From rescuediver.org link

If you develop any symptoms of impending blackout, dizziness, confusion, euphoria, weakness, visual disturbances, during a dive, or you think you wont make it to the surface on your own power, make yourself buoyant. Breath holding is a conscious effort. After making an uncontrolled ascent, rest on the surface and check for injury.

From Dive Training Magazine link

Most certified divers have performed an ESA from a depth of 20-30 feet (6-9 m) during Open Water training. In an actual emergency situation the average diver could most likely perform the maneuver successfully from 30, 40 or even 50 feet (9, 13 or even 16 m). Deeper than 60 feet (18 m) many divers would need to employ a buoyant ascent — ditching their weights and very likely exceeding the safe ascent rate — to reach the surface before requiring additional air.

I am totally with you. I would be extremely reticent to drop my weights at depth. You are committing yourself to nearly certain injury. But in exchange, you are increasing the odds that your "game over" occurs at the surface. I am just advocating ditchable weights because it adds an additional tool to your emergency toolbox.

 

[Thalassamania]

You are committing yourself to nearly certain injury. But in exchange, you are increasing the odds that your "game over" occurs at the surface. I am just advocating ditchable weights because it adds an additional tool to your emergency toolbox.

We've established that people can ascend safety at 340 fpm without injury and that flared you can slow your ascent to less than 60 fpm, so ... what "nearly certain injury" are you committing yourself too?

 

[TSandM]

One basic principle of diving is that the air supply at the surface is infinite and requires no equipment to utilize It is critical to be able to get back to the surface, or you die. The question under consideration is how you can get back to the surface in a variety of nasty situations. Almost all the scenarios under consideration appear to be thinking about the distressed diver as a universe of one -- I don't dive that way. I know I can take my 6' plus buddy, in double 130's, to the surface in a controlled fashion, because I have done it. I know he can do the same for me. If I'm twitching and thinking I'm going to tox, I'm going to be signaling frantically, letting my teammates know I'm not doing well, probably asking one of them for gas if I have any consciousness left, and they'll see I need assistance and escort me to the surface. On the surface, my fully inflated wing will float me; if I've simultaneous had an ox-tox event AND torn my wing in two, it may very well have been my Darwin day.

One of the things about internet discussions is that you can throw out scenarios until they get positively ridiculous, and show the weakness in any approach. But planning for three or four major failures gets absurd. For me to need to ditch weight, I have to have both my dry suit and my wing fail, and lose my buddy. That's a lot of failures in one dive, and I'm willing to chance it.

 

[Oddsnends]

We've established that people can ascend safety at 340 fpm without injury and that flared you can slow your ascent to less than 60 fpm, so ... what "nearly certain injury" are you committing yourself too?

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was considering a situation where the diver would soon lose consciousness (prior to surfacing). I would be concerned about AGE, etc. However, I am also aware that you no longer hold your breath when unconscious, which decreases the chance of AGE. Saying an injury is "nearly certain" is not fair.

 

[Thalassamania]

One basic principle of diving is that the air supply at the surface is infinite and requires no equipment to utilize It is critical to be able to get back to the surface, or you die. The question under consideration is how you can get back to the surface in a variety of nasty situations. Almost all the scenarios under consideration appear to be thinking about the distressed diver as a universe of one -- I don't dive that way. I know I can take my 6' plus buddy, in double 130's, to the surface in a controlled fashion, because I have done it. I know he can do the same for me. If I'm twitching and thinking I'm going to tox, I'm going to be signaling frantically, letting my teammates know I'm not doing well, probably asking one of them for gas if I have any consciousness left, and they'll see I need assistance and escort me to the surface. On the surface, my fully inflated wing will float me; if I've simultaneous had an ox-tox event AND torn my wing in two, it may very well have been my Darwin day.

One of the things about internet discussions is that you can throw out scenarios until they get positively ridiculous, and show the weakness in any approach. But planning for three or four major failures gets absurd. For me to need to ditch weight, I have to have both my dry suit and my wing fail, and lose my buddy. That's a lot of failures in one dive, and I'm willing to chance it.

Lynne's right (surprise, surprise). What it really gets down to is the original question:

Is it a bad idea to dive without any ditchable weights?

I was diving with 14lbs. of lead attached to a Balance BC, Steel HP100, and a 7mm full suit. However, I recently switched to a BP/W setup. My plate weighs 5lbs, and I've added an Oxycheq 4lbs weight sausage to the plate. This gives me a total of 9lbs.

When I factor in all the metal hardware (D-rings, Cam Bands, Belt buckle) into the equation. I should be somewhere around 10lbs weighed, easily. Given that my Balance BC has about a +3lbs positive bouyancy, I should be able sink without any addition weight.

So! Is this dangerous for me to dive with such a setup?

There are several things going on here. Would I consider the rig you suggest “dangerous?” Yes, but not because you can’t drop the weight, rather because you can’t take off the tank without, at best, having one hand tied up hanging on to it. We’ve had long discussions on the danger of putting all your ballast on your rig and there are differing opinions on that subject too.

 

[Rick Murchison]

I am personally dismayed at the current trend to "get rid of the weight" on the belt or integrated weight system for open water diving. I think it may result in a trend of additional risk to typical recreational divers. In my opinion, open water diving should ALWAYS be done with some ditchable weight. I cannot fathom a recreational, open water instructor teaching anything to the contrary. There certainly will not be one working for me.

Phil Ellis

Well.... there are times when the only way to carry ditchable weight is to somehow add buoyancy to your rig. For example, with double steels and a drysuit, I'm negative with no weights. If I wanted to carry ditchable weight, I'd just have to carry more air in the BC or drysuit, and that's just plain stupid, don't you agree?
Now... the purpose of ditchable weight is twofold - first, to establish positive buoyancy at depth in the event you need it to get back to the surface, and second, to establish positive buoyancy at the surface to float well if you need it. But the redundant buoyancy provided by ditchable weights can also be achieved just as easily with two buoyancy devices as it can with one buoyancy device and one ditchable weight system, yes?
Therefore... If I have to carry weight, some of it's ditchable. If my rig is negative without weight, I don't carry extra weight just so I can dump some, because that still wouldn't do any good if I had a complete buoyancy device failure... and so I carry no ditchable weight, but two buoyancy devices, usually a BC and dry suit, but sometimes a BC and lift bag.
Either way, I have two ways to establish positive buoyancy for an effortless (even unconscious) ascent, and for flotation on the surface. (No, a lift bag won't get an unconscious diver all the way to the surface, but a BC with ditched weight won't float the diver face up either, so assistance is still required on the surface for a save either way.)
Rick

 

[halocline]

We should balance the % chance of scenarios that favor having ditchable weight with the risk of accidentally ditching the weight.

Exactly my feeling. If ditchable weight were NEVER at risk of being accidentally ditched, fine, it's got to be theoretically safer to dive with it. But I would be willing to guess that more accidents have been caused by accidental weight loss at depth than by inability to surface due to excessive weight at depth.

At the surface, clearly ditchable weight is safer. But how much safer depends on lots on factors. The primary reason PADI is so strongly behind ditchable weights is because they feel that the surface is at least a dangerous place as depth.

Personally, I dive with no ditchable weight almost all the time, but that's warm water and a lightweight rig; no problem swimming to the surface and remaining surfaced with no air in the wing.