Time for a mandatory refresher?

[perpet1]

scubasean once bubbled...


Just got back from a three-day liveaboard to the Channel Islands...

They asked us to fill out our info, and we signed the release...Never showed a C-card...

We were briefed the first day and told we were on our own tables, and had to judge our dive experience ourselves. They would help where they could, but we assumed our own destiny.

I know this idea is against thie theme of the thread in general BUT:

As long as the DO is open, honest, and adaquately briefs each dive then in the end it should be left to the divers.

I do not know for sure but it if you think about it it makes sense <at some level> that they leave actual certification levels vague (as they did by not requiring a c-card). They are pushing responsibility to the divers <where it belongs>. The DO has a responsibility to adaquately brief each dive in my view, beyond that the divers should understand full well that it is up to them to determine if they are certified to perform the dive.

If the operator knows the dive is 100 feet and there are 10 open water certified people on the boat then they should deny access for the 10 people that are not qusalified to go that deep <never happen in reality>. The game it sounds like they are playing in I will brief a dive to 100 feet and let the divers assume the risk for making the decission to dive.

I know I just stepped back from reality for a bit but if a DM puts a person in the water for a dive and KNOWS they are not qualified then they <and should> be heald accountable as a divemaster for that decission. If I make it clear up front "this is an advanced open water dive and is only recommended for somone that is an advanced open water diver" then I should not have to check a c-card. DO's , in my opinion, in an effort to protect themselvs from lawsuits, take a lot of the responsibility away from the diver.



BTW I think it is great that a dive DO sets a policy like the one that started this thread and sticks to it. <now isn't that a contridiction in thinking>


Pete

 

[MikeFerrara]

I don't run a charter but I think...The requirements for doing a given dive should follow industry accepted guidlines for depth with a little environmnt/diver specific judgement thrown in. This (in theory) establishes the divers qualifications. Beyond that I think it's up to the diver when they need a refresher and what they need to do in the way of work up dives if any.

I would give them a thourough description of site conditions and as long as their training level was compatible aside from maybe recommending a warm up I'd let them decide.

Learning what is within your limits and what isn't is supposed to be part of a divers training. Were these divers trained or not? What else are you going to do for them when you're finished with their thinking? If you go around making decissions for people you may be held responsible for those decissions. I, of course realize that if they get hurt you'll be sued. If you let them decide, you can argue that they were qualified and the choice was theirs. If it's your decission they may argue that you said they were good enough when they weren't. Like I say, I'd stick to what the agencies that certified them recommend and avoid getting creative.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Walter once bubbled...
I think they both needed a refresher and a shallow dive before heading out to the wall.

I agree but I also think they should have known it.

 

[yknot]

Just two questions- no judgement either way.
Is there a charge for the pool refresher/qualifying dives?
What are the liability laws like in your local? Some people instantly think you are subject to a law suit but when you leave the US Constitution behind you often lose your rights.

 

[Charlie99]

yknot once bubbled...
What are the liability laws like in your locale? Some people instantly think you are subject to a lawsuit but when you leave the US Constitution behind you often lose your rights.

Whether or not there is legal liability, accidents and deaths hurt a dive operation's reputation. Legal liability or not, the dive operator and his staff might feel they have a moral obligation as to diver safety and would like to sleep well at night, knowing that they have tried their best to provide a safe envirionment for their customers.

 

[yknot]

A dive shops reputation is certainly a reason to be cautious but I see a lot of opinions posted on this forum that are hypocritical. At its core, is what we are doing really anything other than breathing air thru a hose? Other than owning a dive boat and paying to belong to some sort of professional orginization, what really gives some people the right to decide if another is qualified to breath underwater? Didn't the sport of diving precede cert agencies and dive shops with compressors? Maybe the two people mentioned at the beginning of the post are actually aware of the risks and willing to accept them without paying for someone elses opinion and permission to dive to 100 feet.

 

[medical1]

yknot once bubbled...
A dive shops reputation is certainly a reason to be cautious but I see a lot of opinions posted on this forum that are hypocritical. At its core, is what we are doing really anything other than breathing air thru a hose? Other than owning a dive boat and paying to belong to some sort of professional orginization, what really gives some people the right to decide if another is qualified to breath underwater? Didn't the sport of diving precede cert agencies and dive shops with compressors? Maybe the two people mentioned at the beginning of the post are actually aware of the risks and willing to accept them without paying for someone elses opinion and permission to dive to 100 feet.

I agree that if you are aware of the risks it should be your own choice to accept them.

On the other hand - I can't imagine not diving for 6 months or more and being able to keep my scuba skills up . I try to dive at least every other weekend. If they were my dive buddies I personally would want them to take a refresher course or do some pool time to make sure I am comfortable with there skills, but that would still be my call on if I would dive with them.

Going on a cruise Mid April to Belieze with my G/F (constant dive buddy) & some friends. One of them had not been diving in over a year. I made sure his equipment got serviced - hadn't in over a year, then the 3 of us went on some shallow Gulf dives (Staying very close to each other) so we could make sure all of us were comfortable with each others skill levels (Buddy breathing, hand signals, etc).

**The only thing better then a dive buddy is 2 dive buddies - Redundant redundants ut:

Once I sign a release the only ones I am responsable to are my dive buddy and myself. No one cares more about my butt then me and I accept all responsibility for anything that happens.

I seem to remember signing a release before I could even take my OW class. Something about "Diving can be a hazardous sport and possible result in a loss of life"

 

[Charlie99]

yknot once bubbled...
Other than owning a dive boat and paying to belong to some sort of professional orginization, what really gives some people the right to decide if another is qualified to breath underwater?

Maybe the two people mentioned at the beginning of the post are actually aware of the risks and willing to accept them without paying for someone elses opinion and permission to dive to 100 feet.

Maybe the dive boat owner is actually aware of the risks and is not willing to accept the risk of divers without recent experience doing the dive.

It's his boat. He gets to decide. Do you have a problem with that?

 

[medical1]

Charlie99 once bubbled...

It's his boat. He gets to decide. Do you have a problem with that?

The captain is always right - Now walk the plank! Ever see the movie the Kane Mutany? Captain Quieg

 

[Drew Sailbum]

Yes, there is a charge for the pool refresher. It is $10 more than paying for the dive and rental gear that "Scott" wanted. Not exactly a money maker.

Liability laws in Cayman do require a few things - failure to check c-cards just is not an option for a shop that wants to stay in business long-term. In addition to laws, there is the community standard, which until quite recently recommended no unguided dives along the wall. (CITA Watersports Committee recommedations formed the basis of the local standard of care.) While these divers may have been signed up at another shop, we didn't feel that the attitude they displayed was conducive to safe diving.

As others have pointed out, people notice when an ambulance is called and when a diver is carried across the beach on a stretcher. It is not good for business. We take a conservative approach which sometimes costs us business.