Reasonable to limit bottom time to 45 min?

[jar546]

1) You never opened you mouth to question the dive times, depths, plan from the beginning.
2) You never opened your mouth and inquired as to why the dives were stopped at 45 mins after the first dive. You said because you were angry and did not want to argue. Really?
3) You failed to plan your 3 dive day because of #1 above. Your computer allows you to plan dives.

You should have no complaints if you did not ask questions during the dive briefing or before you got on the boat or stop and ask for a briefing is there wasn't one. You have a responsibility as a diver and cannot rely 100% on the DM/Guide.

Sorry but I just don't see the reason for your frustration when you failed to communicate from the beginning.

 

[mathauck0814]

At the max depths given, 45 minutes would have been acceptable, but as before we spent a lot of time in relatively shallow water. Not even close to the max depths. At one time we were in 6 meters for about 20 minutes.

...

I know that I am experienced enough to dive under certain conditions, and if I was not comfortable with a dive I would have said something.

If you're not comfortable at 6m, odds are there aren't many diving options for you.

Regardless, this is entirely on you for not planning your own dive and just following a DM around. The time you spent in your training working with tables and making sure you'd get away with what you intended to do wasn't just an exercise for the instructor's benefit - you're actually supposed to use that knowledge.

Now, I'm not saying that I plan every dive I do with a set of tables - at some point you memorize the profiles that you dive frequently and you can go with that - but had you done that and told the DM that you had sufficient bottom time remaining to execute a longer dive and that you intended to do so, the DM would have done one of two things: Agree and let you dive your plan or tell you that 45 minutes is a policy of the shop.

Calling ahead and asking questions about typical profiles and run times is pretty basic and will help avoid surprises like the one you encountered.

 

[DevonDiver]

What a lot of people forget, is that the DM will be running the dives from their own computer. I worked in Malaysia (Sipidan/Mabul) before, and it wasn't uncommon to dive 7 days a week, 3-5 dives per day, for several weeks without a 'de-saturation' day.

Knocking out 3-5 dives a day, 7 days a week, for several weeks without respite, does a lot to push slow-tissues into the role of controlling compartments of a dive - hence more conservative dive times. Discussion on computer model conservatism often becomes irrelevant under those circumstances.

So yeah, sometimes a dive guide won't ram themselves against the limits of air or NDL...

I'd expect an 'experienced diver' to contemplate such factors - the Divemaster has safety concerns also, and every diver with them should be reasonably diligent to respect that.

Also, as I alluded to before...and as Jar546 points out...the dive guide will often run things on the basis of what they see from their customers/divers. Turn up for diving in a "follow the herd mode", then get shepherded. Experience (competence) is demonstrated, not talked about. If a diver has no inclination to plan their own dive, or even question a given plan in advance, then it's absolutely reasonable to expect a low capability level and 'feed' such divers a very comfortable, conservative plan.

Nothing could be more true than "you get what you put into it". If you don't put anything into planning your own dives, then I don't see much cause for complaint in hindsight, should someone else's plan not meet your expectations.

 

[nimoh]

It's not too late, you could send the dive operator an email asking about their policy regarding 45 minutes. I would recommend sending a polite email from the perspective of curiosity rather than filing a complaint.

 

[bigduke12]

That's relevant. However, all of the group should have been diving on computers, otherwise the dive guide (according to agency teaching) should be running an acceptable profile for those using tables.

3x 18m repetitive dives sounds about right @45 minutes, assuming tables NDLs weren't going to be hammered.



Divemasters often give an outline plan - that's correct by how they are taught (qualified divers being expected to plan their own dives, within that outline) and, in practice, it is also typical (note: typically) for groups of mixed experience - allowing some deviation in dive planning within the group (to prevent issues as you have raised).

That said, it's important to determine whether the DM is providing an outline plan, in which you can create your own sub-plan, or whether they are just doing a sloppy job of briefing. It's easy for a DM to fall into an 'underwater shepherd' mentality - "you follow me, I'll do all the thinking...". That is, however, easy rectified by some pro-active communication by the customer.



Again, if one member of the group were using tables/depth gauge/timer, then a multi-level profile would have been defunct.



It's important to appraise experience with customer divers, of course. C-cards, log-books and a "brief chat" all help with that, but aren't categorical in defining capability. The point I was trying to make was that an experienced DM, using their eyeballs and judgement, can make a far more reliable assessment of dive competence than a customer's "self-declaration" of experience and skill.

Well, as I said it was my first such dive trip. All my other dives were local shore or boat dives.

I know the areas, and we usually have a simple plan, such as dive down to around 30m until one of us reaches 100 bar. Then slowly make our way up to the top of the reef, swim around at around 15m until we hit 50 bar, and then up a 5m safety stop. The boat captain usually gives us an hour.

Possibly, as this was my first such trip, my expectations may have been a little high.

Only the divemaster and I had computers or any type of timing device. The others did not even have watches. So basically, we had to make sure they were above us at all times.

---------- Post Merged at 09:46 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 09:40 PM ----------

What a lot of people forget, is that the DM will be running the dives from their own computer. I worked in Malaysia (Sipidan/Mabul) before, and it wasn't uncommon to dive 7 days a week, 3-5 dives per day, for several weeks without a 'de-saturation' day.

Knocking out 3-5 dives a day, 7 days a week, for several weeks without respite, does a lot to push slow-tissues into the role of controlling compartments of a dive - hence more conservative dive times. Discussion on computer model conservatism often becomes irrelevant under those circumstances.

So yeah, sometimes a dive guide won't ram themselves against the limits of air or NDL...

I'd expect an 'experienced diver' to contemplate such factors - the Divemaster has safety concerns also, and every diver with them should be reasonably diligent to respect that.

Also, as I alluded to before...and as Jar546 points out...the dive guide will often run things on the basis of what they see from their customers/divers. Turn up for diving in a "follow the herd mode", then get shepherded. Experience (competence) is demonstrated, not talked about. If a diver has no inclination to plan their own dive, or even question a given plan in advance, then it's absolutely reasonable to expect a low capability level and 'feed' such divers a very comfortable, conservative plan.

Nothing could be more true than "you get what you put into it". If you don't put anything into planning your own dives, then I don't see much cause for complaint in hindsight, should someone else's plan not meet your expectations.

But surely if you are diving at a totally unfamiliar sight, you can not really plan your own dives?

Most of the input has to come from the divemaster who is experienced at the dive sites.

---------- Post Merged at 09:48 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 09:40 PM ----------

It's not too late, you could send the dive operator an email asking about their policy regarding 45 minutes. I would recommend sending a polite email from the perspective of curiosity rather than filing a complaint.

I don't plan on filing a complaint. I think in future I will ask all the questions I think relevant, upfront prior to booking the trip.

 

[nimoh]

Well, as I said it was my first such dive trip. All my other dives were local shore or boat dives.

I know the areas, and we usually have a simple plan, such as dive down to around 30m until one of us reaches 100 bar. Then slowly make our way up to the top of the reef, swim around at around 15m until we hit 50 bar, and then up a 5m safety stop. The boat captain usually gives us an hour.

Possibly, as this was my first such trip, my expectations may have been a little high.

Only the divemaster and I had computers or any type of timing device. The others did not even have watches. So basically, we had to make sure they were above us at all times.

---------- Post Merged at 09:46 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 09:40 PM ----------



But surely if you are diving at a totally unfamiliar sight, you can not really plan your own dives?

Most of the input has to come from the divemaster who is experienced at the dive sites.

This discussion seems to have changed, the other divers had no timing device? As a divemaster, I would not let anyone dive with me that didn't have a minimum instrument set of spg, depth guage and timing device.

Furthermore, without computers, the dive should have been planned (with all divers included in the discussion) with tables.

Did the divemaster perhaps have a planning session with the other divers that you missed?

 

[bigduke12]

This discussion seems to have changed, the other divers had no timing device? As a divemaster, I would not let anyone dive with me that didn't have a minimum instrument set of spg, depth guage and timing device.

Furthermore, without computers, the dive should have been planned (with all divers included in the discussion) with tables.

Did the divemaster perhaps have a planning session with the other divers that you missed?

No, we all had the same briefing. There was no use of tables. Just a general layout explanation of the site.

 

[nimoh]

No, we all had the same briefing. There was no use of tables. Just a general layout explanation of the site.

No, we all had the same briefing. There was no use of tables. Just a general layout explanation of the site.

Well, IMHO it seems there were a few problems here. The divemaster should have provided the dive profile (including the max time), along with ensuring everyone had the necessary equipment to complete the dive. However, when this didn't happen you, and the other divers should have been questioning this.

My guess is that the divemaster was planning a square profile (18m/45mins), and then making the dive more conservative by spending more time in the shallows, however this should have been communicated to the divers. If the 45 minute maximum caught you by surprise, then what did you think was the limit of the dive? Was there any mention in the briefing of minimum gas?

The bottom line is that you need to speak up when you aren't sure of these things, and if you can't speak up for fear of getting into an argument due to your anger, then you need to work on your anger issues so that you can have a calm discussion about things that don't make sense to you.

 

[DivemasterDennis]

I have a blog post here on scubaboard titled "What Makes a Good Divemaster?" Much applies to this thread. You might want to read it all, but here is the relevant portion:

I've been reading comments lately about helpful dive masters, pain in the neck dive masters, overbearing and restrictive dive masters, and dive masters who are barely present. I have encountered all of these, both as a recreational diver and as a dive professional. Diving with a good dive master, as I am about to define that term, can make the difference between a bad dive experience and a good one, whether you are brand new to our sport or a seasoned expert with thousands of dives. ... A good DM will learn all he can about the divers he will be with in the water. I always ask first for a show of hands of those who have dove the site, and make note of it. By engaging each diver briefly before the dive, and observing them setting up gear and the nature of their gear, I get a fair idea of their level of comfort and competence. I also asks divers about their expectations for the dive- photos, video, hunting, observation, and so on. When there are expert divers aboard I discuss with them if they want to do their own profile, something that is usually ok (depending on the site and conditions) especially if there is a person with current professional credentials and insurance in their group. It is helpful if they will tell me what they expect and want, and if they intend to stray from the group, how I will know, etc. This invariably works out well for everyone. That's because part of being a good DM is knowing who needs your close attention and knowing who does not. ... There are other things that you can do to help make your DM a better DM....

3. Tell me the truth about your experience and competence level, and recent dive history.
...
5. Once we get in the water, unless we previously agreed otherwise, (you and me) follow the planned dive profile and stay reasonably close to me and the group.
...
9. Between dives, let me know if you had a problem or complaint. Let's get it resolved before we dive again. ...
The fact is there are some bad DM's, and there are good DM's who have a bad day now and then. So help them out by listening, communicating, getting acquainted, and following these procedures. If they are not responsive, make the best of it, and tell the other crew or supervisors about any issues. But please, also remember that if we didn't arrange for you to dive your own profile in advance, if you are exceeding planned dive depth or chase off repeatedly and don't even know where you are or you constantly ignore your buddy and a DM retrieves you, they aren't being a pain, they are doing their job. You weren't doing your job.
We DM's really do want to have happy divers. Happy divers leave nice tips. Help me and all DM's to help you have a good dive experience.
DivemasterDennis
​

 

[Mike]

Just came back from a trip to Borneo. I did a one day diving trip consisting of three dives. I was really looking forward to it.

The group consisted of a divemaster/guide, 4 other divers and myself. The deepest we went was 18m, average probably 10/12m.

On the first dive, the divemaster made us surface after 45 minutes. I still had over 100 bar left. I thought maybe on of the others was short on air. No big deal.
The exact same thing happened on the second dive. 45 minutes then surface. This time I checked with the others. They all had between 80 and 100 bars.
The third was exactly the same. After 45 minutes we surfaced. We all had between 80 and 100+ bars left.

I did not say anything, but was pretty angry about the whole situation.


The divemaster changed the tanks after each dive himself, so he must have seen we all had more than sufficient air left to stay under quite a bit longer.

Also at no stage was I asked how many dives I had under my belt, experience etc.

I am pretty pissed off about the whole situation?:cussing:

One of the many questions I ask any dive operator I'm considering diving with is : "Do you do timed dives or will you let me dive my tank and computer?"

It's far, far more common to find a dive operator running timed dives then anything else, for the variety of reasons already hinted at such as the quality of the divers in the group, equipment and what seems more to influence it then anything else is the operator running on a schedule such as needing to be back at the dock at a certain time so they can run afternoon dives, so you have to ask that question or you'll most likely end up with an op that does timed dives.

I'm amazed with 100-200 dives this is the first time you've ever ran into this. It's also strange to me that in the dive briefing the DM didn't explain when the dive would be over. It's always typical in my experience for how the dive will end to be discussed in the dive briefing. In your experience with this DM it seems at some point he would have said something along the lines of "At 40 minutes we will do a 3 minute safety stop...."

I'm always asking the timed dive question to potential dive operators, because I'm looking for the better ops who attract better divers who are looking for the same thing as me. It's also going to be a common denominator with most operators who don't do timed dives is they are going to be the more expensive dive operators. It's almost a given if you find a low priced op they are not going to cater to the discriminatory divers.