GUE Training Question

[scubamarketing]

I'm also curious to know what it is about Fundies that makes it a non-starter class for your girlfriend -- but that's another issue.

Pretty basic yet comprehensive reasons why it's not a good idea for her at this time: she's open water and dry suit certified, has about 50 reef dives and 6 cold water dives in her log book, she has no interest in tech/cave/research at this point, and would rather just spend the $900 (what it costs where she lives) on gear and diving. I've emphasized the time aspect of my statement because there may be a time in the future when I'll recommend it to her or she'll seek it out on her own. Right now it would be task loading and a bit beyond her skill level when 99% of her dives are going to be on traditional PADI-filled dive boats.

---------- Post added January 8th, 2014 at 09:02 PM ----------

Also Peter, awesome distinctive specialty! I've been planning on incorporating things I've learned from Fundies and all of my TDI tech/cave courses in to various PADI courses, but may have to reconsider after reading through the outline. Great stuff!

 

[kdupreez]

First off, I am going to appoligize for the hijack of this thread, but I feel its warranted to set the record straight on a few things that in my opinion have been grossly misrepresented here..

-

Hello Nick (scubamarketing)

Sorry for being late to the party. I think that I may have missed the invite.

So, to be clear to everyone on this thread, including you: I am the GUE Instructor that Nick is mentioning here and of course Nick is completely entitled to opinion and feedback and I welcome and value any feedback given after class. (btw - I have not had a single piece of feedback or any communications from you to this effect until reading this post..)

There are a couple of points I do wish to clarify with the group here and also make clear to you, Nick.

1. Your fundamentals class was scheduled for May 31, 2012 - June 03, 2012 and as a reminder, you did not have ANY equipment for the class and I gave you a FULL set of my personal brand new Halcyon gear, including tanks and 32% breathing gas completely FREE of rental fee or charge.

2. The Visibility on Day 1 Dive 1 (Alki Cove 2) was outside of the GUE published standards and for YOUR safety I am not entitled to break those standards.. Not only do we have visibility requirements in the standards, but we also have an instructor to student ratio limit of 1:3 for safety reasons and for your enjoyment of the class. These classes are less about how many people you as an instructor can stick in a class, but rather focused around the safety of the students and providing a conducive learning experience and making that experience a positive one for the students.

3. The 2nd dive attempt in Lake Washington on that same day was even worse after you and your team mates kicked up the silty lake bottom sufficiently enough that we could not continue.

4. The 3rd attempt the next day at 3Tree North, we encountered substantial current that not only blew you and your entire team off the downline by 500ft with a complete team seperation, but visibility was border line. additionally, that kind of strong current is unfortunately not conducive to a good and safe learning experience.

5. This is when I called a spade a spade and rescheduled.. I did NOT cancel the class.. The class was rescheduled (as you will probably be reminded by the email chain below..)

6. You did NOT complete a fundies class.. you attended a couple days of classroom theory and did not complete even half of Dive 1 (There are 6 to 7 dives in the class).

To refresh your memory, below is the email thread between us spanning over 12 months in attempting to get you to commit to a schedule for completing your fundamentals class.. I invited you to stay at my home with free breathing gas and full equipment use to make things as easy for you as possible.. ALL you had to do was show up...

Incidentally, your 2 team mates in this class have subsequently successfully completed their GUE Fundamentals class a few weeks after the initial class dates when conditions forced me to reschedule it for safety reasons..

If you dont care to re-read the entire email chain between us where I asked you at least 4 or 5 times to commit when you can finish the class, feel free to skip to the bottom of this thread...

Begin forwarded message:

From: Koos Du Preez <koos@gue.com>

Subject: Completion of Fundies dives.

Date: June 5, 2012 1:07:12 PM PDT

To: [recipients email addresses redacted.]


Greetings Gentlemen!

Looking at the past weekend's viz and general diving conditions, it seems like Mother Nature had it in for us!

Sorry we could not complete the dives as planned, but I hope you can appreciate that besides the safety factor of bad viz and currents, you are just not getting the learning opportunity owed to you if we had to muscle through the conditions.

So - I would like to get a few dives on the schedule (conditions pending).

@xxx - please send me your schedule since your time constraints are the limiting factor that I would like to work around.

Same goes for the rest of you, please give an indication of whats best and what doesn't work at all for your schedules to complete the dives.

We to complete at least 4-5 dives to cover All Kicks, Basic5, S-Drill, Valve-Drill, SMB Deployment, No-Mask Swim, Experience dive.

If we get good conditions we should be able to catch these up in a couple of days.

Then with regards to the Exam, I would like to sit down with you and grade the exams and we can do that after a dive. So please remember to bring those folders with you next time.

best,

Koos


​

You replied with this..

From: Nick Bostic <Email address redacted>

Subject: Re: Completion of Fundies dives.

Date: June 5, 2012 1:56:01 PM PDT

To: Koos Du Preez <koos@gue.com>


Aside from the 12 & 13 of this month, I'm pretty open. If we need to look into next month, let me know, but I know it's quite a bit busier.

I then sent a few dates along with this message to ask you let me know when will work for you..

Begin forwarded message:

From: Koos du Preez <koos@gue-seattle.org>

Subject: Re: Completion of Fundies dives.

Date: June 7, 2012 8:56:51 PM PDT

To: [redacted[

Cc: [redacted], Nick Bostic


ok

xxx and xxxx, let's put Tuesday and Wednesday on the calendar for
dives for 4:30 onwards.

Nick let me know if you can join for one of these. we can try do a
dive per weeks or whatever works for your schedule.

over the course of next few dives, need to do:
kicks
basic5
sdril
valve drill
smb shoot
no mask swim

​

Koos

After NOT hearing from you for 2 weeks.. Sent you this:

From: Koos Du Preez <koos@gue.com>

Subject: Hey Nick!

Date: June 14, 2012 9:32:34 PM PDT

To: Nick Bostic


Hey Nick,

hows things going!

Havent heard from you in a while and hope all is OK.

I wanted to see if you have interest to come up for a couple of days and stay here at our place and we finish fundies as well as do a few fun dives?

Koos

To wich you replied and appologized for not getting back to me with this:

From: Nick Bostic

Subject: Re: Hey Nick!

Date: June 15, 2012 11:37:37 PM PDT

To: Koos Du Preez <koos@gue.com>


Hey, sorry, I just started using a new service that's supposed to help prioritize my email and it decided you weren't high priority

I definitely have interest. My car started running a bit funny today, so I need to get it checked out before I can commit to when exactly, but I should be able to get it in to my guy early next week and will let you know what my schedule is looking like.​

I then replied back asking you to send me dates that will work for you..

From: Koos Du Preez <koos@gue.com>

Subject: Re: Hey Nick!

Date: June 16, 2012 1:08:16 AM PDT

To: Nick Bostic


no problem. I wont take it personally or feel any less important

let me know a tentative schedule and lets see how we can make it fit.

​

You then went dark for about a month without replying back with any possible dates.. and I pinged you again..

Begin forwarded message:

From: Koos Du Preez <koos@gue.com>

Subject: Re: Hey Nick!

Date: July 10, 2012 12:00:09 AM PDT

To: Nick Bostic


Hi Nick,

Just checking in to see if you have an idea of what your schedule will permit to finish up those dives?


Koos

​

You appologized again and said you wanted to do it in this reply:

From: Nick Bostic

Subject: Re: Hey Nick!

Date: July 17, 2012 6:07:40 PM PDT

To: Koos Du Preez <koos@gue.com>



Sorry, you got me right as I was getting ready to head out to work in the woods for the better part of a week. I'm out of town Tomorrow through Monday, but then I have quite a bit more availability between next week and the end of August. Should we just keep an eye on viz or has it been pretty consistent lately?

I replied back wanted to get some dates from you again..

From: Koos Du Preez <koos@gue.com>

Subject: Re: Hey Nick!

Date: July 18, 2012 10:54:09 PM PDT

To: Nick Bostic


Viz has been holding for the past couple weeks. I have a fundies class starting next thursday-sunday so let me know what your schedule is like after that?

You again went dark for a month and I pinged you AGAIN to ask for some dates that will work for you..

From: Koos du Preez <koos@gue.com>

Subject: Re: Hey Nick!

Date: August 20, 2012 9:32:29 PM PDT

To: Nick Bostic


Hey Nick,

Viz has been fairly good as of late. let me know if/when you can make it up this way for some diving!


Koos

You replied, again appologizing for being busy and said you will for sure be ready after burning man..

Begin forwarded message:

From: Nick Bostic

Subject: Re: Hey Nick!

Date: August 21, 2012 2:08:09 PM PDT

To: Koos du Preez <koos@stellardiving.com>


At the moment I'm prepping for Burning Man and will be out there a week from today through two weeks from today. After that, give me 3 hours notice and I'll be there
​

After almost 3 months of trying my best to schedule something with you and inviting you to my home to stay and offering free dive gas and equipment, I decided to stop haunting you to complete the class..

[EDIT - I am going to profusely appoligize, Nick let me know privately this morning that unbeknownst to me, I missed a single Facebook message.. This was a reply to another request of mine in April 2013 to complete the classs - see below.. He requested his class be transferred to Mexico.. I missed this message, but even so, transfers are not possible ]

Although in my opinion, a follow up on this request was maybe warranted. There was never any follow up and also no reply on my subsequent communications that clearly indicate I missed this Facebook message...

So, in June of 2013, After a year of not receiving any commitments or requests to complete the class, the statute of limitations on leaving GUE Fundies classes open, pretty much had sufficiently lapsed and I needed to close the records..

I emailed you with this communication below, again asking you to let me know how I can help you complete the class. You did not respond to this email below.

From: Koos du Preez <koos@gue.com>

Subject: Fundies Class

Date: June 10, 2013 10:53:31 PM PDT

To: Nick Bostic


Hello Nick!

I hope all is well, as its certainly been a while since we spoke!


I had to close your GUE Fundamentals registration after 12 months or the original course and unfortunately at this point you would need to complete the class again in its entirety and I can not give any credit for the classroom or diving that we have already done.


However, You were a pretty good diver, astute candidate and all round cool guy and I really think you will enjoy doing a fundies class a lot and if you ever decide to do the class again, please do let me know and I will do everything I can do be accommodating.


best,

Koos

I have yet to receive a reply on the email above&#8230; The first response I got to above was this Scubaboard post.

As you can probably clearly gather, I have tried pretty much everything I could to help you complete this class except coming down to Oregon and chauffeur you to a dive location and complete the class..

I REALLY apologize if you had a bad experience in the first days you attended the class and the few failed attempts we had at Dive 1 due to conditions.

GUE Fundamentals course is normally conducted over four days, requires at least 6 dives and at least 30 hours instruction, encompassing classroom, land drills and in-water work.

Based on your participation in a very small part of a GUE Fundamentals class and without completing even a single class dive in its entirety, I don't think that you have a remotely fair view of the class as a whole.

This is quite evident in the jaded opinion you have been voicing here.

All this said, Nick. If you still wish to do a GUE Fundamentals class, I pledge to give you a FREE spot in any one of my upcoming GUE Fundamentals classes any time scheduled from today (January 8, 2014) for the next 12 months..

The same offer still stands: you can come and stay at my home and I will provide you with all the gear and the breathing gas thats required to finish this class.. All you need to do is show up..

best,

Koos

 

[WhiteSands]

Hello DIR Divers
I have been researching GUE diving and it appears that, due to their high standards, many people do not pass on their first attempt. As best I can tell, a class is approx. $500 - $600 plus expenses. So my question is if a 'candidate' does not pass on the first attempt, do they have to pay the $500-6000 again or does GUE allow the instructor to work with them until they meet the standards?

From what I understand, whether or not you have to pay to be re-accessed depends on the instructor. The ones where I live don't charge to re-access you. I'm not to sure if you need to pay the fee to GUE again though.

But you definitely do not pay the entire course fees again. You might have to pay a bit to compensate for instructor's time to re-evaluate you.

 

[Freezerbrn]

All I can say is wow...

All this said, Nick. If you still wish to do a GUE Fundamentals class, I pledge to give you a FREE spot in any one of my upcoming GUE Fundamentals classes any time scheduled from today (January 8, 2014) for the next 12 months....

The kind of professionalism and dedication that Koos Du Preez is showing here has what I've seen first hand from GUE instructors here in So. Cal. Both as a student and as a teammate on dives. I also know of a woman (single working mother) who struggled to pass Fundies and stuck with it. It was a little over a yr before she got her pass, but she did it. So outside of health and medical reasons it comes down to motivation and desire to complete the course OP. IMHO

 

[rivers]

Howdy Dave,

As others have posted in this thread, very few fail Fundies. At the risk of being redundant: The three levels are provisional, rec pass and tech pass. If you score a provisional, you have 6 months to return (which can be extended provided the instructor agrees). The other two are passes. Now, should you want to continue along the GUE course, you will need a tech pass to get into the Level 1 technical courses. If you scored a rec pass in Fundies, you can go back and upgrade to tech. There is no time constraint on this.

I achieved a rec pass in my Fundies class and then upgraded to tech about 6 months later. I can tell you that my instructor will allow former students to attend the last two days of a Fundies class to upgrade for free, provided that the class is not full. In my case, living in Texas, we brought our instructor to us for the tech upgrade. I say we meaning me and my original teammates. The cost was not bad at all. He drove to Texas himself with all equipment, charged us a daily fee and a whopping $100 a piece for travel expenses. It was cheaper to bring him to us than to travel to FL and sit in on a "free" Fundies class for the last 2 days.

Your location states: Southeast USA....so you should have an instructor fairly close!

I wish you success should you plan to take Fundies, sir.

If you get a rec pass, you can proceed with GUE's recreational program (Rec 3, Doc. diver, DPV1, etc)

 

[danvolker]

Scubamarketing -- You are absolutely correct that not all GUE classes are great nor are all instructors appropriate for all students. And Dan Volker is absolutely wrong when he writes that GUE Fundies is unique -- it is not.

Sorry, I'm not going to play with this one.....
GUE "is" on the top of the pyramid, and it is unique, in that they are the ones that developed such a high caliber course FIRST......Any Agency or instructor in any agency, is welcome to try and copy as much of the GUE Fundies course as they like--few attempts exists...of course UTD is one bastard child that appears to be doing well , and is close in course, and good in the overall copying of GUE material. Whether YOU have copied much of the course, or some other PADI or NAUI or NASE instructor has made a copy and a Specialty that they are now teaching......this is an issue of watching an innovator, and attempting to get close to it.....

Being a "wannabe GUE instructor", under the mantle of PADI or NAUI or NASE, is actually a good thing--this post may make it seem like I am degrading them--I do NOT mean to....But I do want to stress that the REAL BENEFIT which can now spread to all the copiers, and the top PRAISE, still goes to the group that CREATED all of this, from the training VACUUM ( no high level recreational training existing) prior to GUE.

All that being said Peter, what you have accomplished is ALSO something BIG to be very proud of.

 

[lv2dive]

I do appreciate the fact this post was qualified to say "...you are not likely to receive a 'fail'" (emphasis mine)

I want to set the record straight here, which I have done in the past and I am sure I will do again. I FAILED Fundies the first time I took it: I was told it was a skills issue. Please note that with different instructors, within six months from that original (failed) Fundies class, I had achieved a tech pass and within a year I had passed Tech1, so I don't think I was THAT hopeless but my original instructor/s did.

My original reason for taking Fundies had nothing to do with passing or not passing although TBH it did not occur to me I would FAIL... I wanted to be a better diver (improve my skills) and I wanted to learn more about this system of diving. I had no ego; I wasn't interested in moving forward in the technical curriculum with GUE (too expensive) and I had no interest in cave diving (anyone who knows me now will find that very amusing). I knew there were pass levels, but any thought I put into it, I am sure I just assumed I would provisional... I didn't have exposure to GUE prior and knew rec and tech passes could be challenging for people who DID have exposure, and I *thought* no one failed unless there was an attitude or a safety issue.

So every time I see statements like this I put my experience out there, because I just want people to know it is a possibility.

I believe if you keep an open mind, drop any ego if you have any, set the goal to "learn" instead of "pass", you are not likely to receive a "fail". You may get a "provisional", allowing you to redo your check out and change "provisional" to a "pass". I believe you get at least one retry, but the actual number of retries really is between you and your instructor. And if you have the correct altitude, even you don't pass, you won't regret.

As for cost, it is actually not that much consider the amount of time you get from the instructor. I would say fundie is a lot better deal than any of the Padi class, maybe except Rescue.

Have the above said, I think it is definitely possible have bad instructors in GUE just like other agency. I haven't experienced it myself since all around my area have nothing but great. But I have heard very bad stories recently from a visit GUE diver from out of state

 

[alewar]

I hope to be wrong but I have the feeling we've reached the point were the OP stops participating in his thread.

 

[lv2dive]

Fair enough. Let's turn it around, then. The original question was in regards to, what happens if you don't pass round one. PfcAJ explained there are different levels of passing, and that re-evals may or may not have an additional cost. KathyDee suggested contacting instructors that are in the OP's area and asking about their policies. To help the OP get a feel for the instructors in his/her area, I've created a thread to which I hope others will contribute. Through the class reports, the OP can at least get a feel for the instructors closest by, and contact those with whom s/he feels the closest affinity.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/di...ports-consolidated-inventory.html#post7001219

I hope to be wrong but I have the feeling we've reached the point were the OP stops participating in his thread.

 

[kdupreez]

Nick (ScubaMarketing)

It seems that you are sour that you had to pay for a class but never completed the class due to your own scheduling conflicts and non responsiveness. (i.e. not owning the goal of completing the class)

I never received ANY feedback or requests to this effect.. But it seems that in order to put this issue at rest, a refund is what you seek..

I just sent you a $500 refund on your $650 tuition and I figure that almost 2 years after the class and the 2 days you spent in the class, a $500 refund is more than fair.

The only think I ask is that you refrain from any further negative reviews on a class that you never actually completed.

You did 2 days of theory and did not do a single full dive in the class.. In fact you attended less than 20% of that class and didnt complete any dives.

You never actually completed a GUE Fundies class and in my mind that does not qualify you to an opinion of the class.

So - here is your refund THAT YOU NEVER ASKED FOR.. I also still stand by my offer to give you a FREE Fundamentals class on top of this refund.. Its clear that you had a seemingly bad experience and that is not typical of GUE and not representative of who we are.