Why are certifications valid forever?

[Bob DBF]

It's not about your competence, it is for an insurance company to shift responsibility for an accident from the dive shop, instructor, or boat onto you. You were trained, you have a card, you should have known, it is your fault.

When I started diving, many divers, as well as myself, had no card. At the time, you were responsible for yourself and when something bad happened it was your fault and no one went running to the lawyers, times have changed. I doubt if the insurance industry wants cards to expire, as they would have to be checked a lot more carefully to cover their butts. Imagine having the expiration date on your card at each air-fill, training session, and boat trip.



Bob
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I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.

 

[Akimbo]

You notice that we don't make vehicle drivers have ongoing education or proof of driving hours.

True but drivers licenses do have to be renewed, which “can” require taking a written and/or driving test.

California it has gotten pretty lax though. I went 15-20 years with new drivers licenses just being mailed to me before my birthday, after sending in a fee of course. I actually had to go to the DMV last time, but all they did was update the photo and do their quickie eye test. I was tempted to take a cell phone out and send a text message while they were taking the photo.

 

[scagrotto]

in Hang Gliding your license can be suspend or revoked at any time, for unsafe acts, for violating certain rules. It MAY be because HG falls under FAR 103 (Federal Aviation Regulations)

A USHGA/USHPA license is a good analogy. Like a c-card, they're issued by a private company, subject only to the rules of that private company, and neither is legally required to engage in the activity. The only thing preventing PADI or anyone else from slapping an expiration date on the card or revoking it for some perceived infraction is their own policies (which are largely driven by their interest in self-preservation).

A USHPA license is useful for flying from some locations, and a c-card is useful for renting gear or getting on some dive boats. If either was revoked do you think somebody will come knocking on your door and demand that you hand it over? Do you think most places would check your card against a list of either valid or invalid cards?

 

[flots am]

Hey Gang,

I'm very new to this, but I'm surprised that a c-card is basically valid forever, and really can't be revoked once it's issued. It would, to my way of thinking, make sense that they be issued for "X" amount of time (say 5 years), and at the end of that 5 years you would have to submit some proof of "Y" number of dives, or "Z" amount of continuing education, ie a more advanced cert.

The "reason" it doesn't expire is just marketing. Nobody would buy a card that expires in a few years.

However just because you have a card that says you can do "X" or someone will "let" you do "X", doesn't mean you actually know how to do it or that it's safe.

Regardless of what the card says, you need to make the final determination.

flots.

 

[Akimbo]

FAA regulations are a different animal because failures can fall on public and private property and cause physical harm. A diver that kills themselves due to incompetence does not pose that danger to the general population.

 

[TMHeimer]

True but drivers licenses do have to be renewed, which “can” require taking a written and/or driving test.

California it has gotten pretty lax though. I went 15-20 years with new drivers licenses just being mailed to me before my birthday, after sending in a fee of course. I actually had to go to the DMV last time, but all they did was update the photo and do their quickie eye test. I was tempted to take a cell phone out and send a text message while they were taking the photo.

Really? Where do you have to take a test to renew your license assuming you're not 85 or over?

 

[Diver0001]

... I think this one falls under the category "be careful what you wish for" ...

Actually, one agency that I'm aware of (GUE) has expiring C-cards ... you must do a certain number of dives at the level of the certification over a specific time period in order to maintain its validity. For technical diving, this makes some sense ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Some CMAS variants do this too. The Nelos in Belgium (last I heard) requires divers to make a certain number of deep dives in order to maintain their deep cert. They come to the Netherlands in the summer by the bus full to do that, including the BBQ, the beer and the party tents. It all looks like a lot of fun until the odd one goes to "tick off" their deep requirement and doesn't come back.

There are about 50 accidents a year in the Benelux, most of which involve rapid ascents, lost divers and skipped deco and of those 50 I'm going to say that 48 are Nelos divers. If I'm not mistaken it's been about a decade since a fatal accident happened in the Netherlands that did not happen during training or involve a Belgian diver.

This is what happens when you make rules like that for non technical divers.

As for the OP's question, I think the answer is simple. It's hard enough to get people to become active divers even when they HAVE taken the course. If you also tell them that they are FORCED to become active divers then the number of people entering the sport would dwindle.

Is that wise? I don't know. But it's the economic reality.

R..

 

[Akimbo]

Really? Where do you have to take a test to renew your license assuming you're not 85 or over?

Drivers licenses are issued by states in the US so there are 50 constantly changing requirements. Periodically taking a test is probably a good idea since they add new traffic laws at mind-boggling rates. I had a neighbor who had to take the written test recently so it is probably 75 here.

 

[boulderjohn]

Same with teachers (although I know in NY State that teachers must get their Masters within 5 years of starting to teach, unless that's changed). Teaching Certs. don't expire. I'm not sure if they can actually be revoked, but if so it would have to be for something heinous. Teachers do participate in inservice days throughout the school year--these are part of the school year/contract. And teachers at times get evaluated by Administration. But you can't lose your Cert. for being a below average ability teacher. In rare cases maybe your job.

Everywhere I know in America teachers are required to participate in some sort of learning every so many years in order to renew their certifications or licenses, and they can be revoked. Both my teaching license and my principal license expired long ago, and if I wanted to go back into either job, I would have to go through some significant hoops.

That is, of course, controlled by the government, with tons of funding in place to control it. Even so, in Colorado getting a teaching license confirmed can take 9 months because of the huge workload and the lack of personnel to take care of it all. PADI issues approximately 900,000 certifications a year world wide. Can you imagine what they would need to do to monitor it all? Where would that money come from? It would come from fees paid by the divers, of course. Now, can you imagine the howls of protest from people screaming about money grabs if they were to require people to go back to their instructors and get recertified every few years?

 

[MrChen]

I dove on two boats this week for the first time. I was asked when my last dive was by both ops. One of them had the question on the release waiver. Neither asked me for my c-card which was surprising, but I did have to write my Padi number on the release.

Sure, this information could be falsified... Not sure why I'd do that.