single or doubles BPW?

[HantsDiver]

At this very moment, I'd suggest doing Fundies in a single (with a CORDED primary light), and later doing the Doubles Primer. Nearly everything in Fundies in a single tank will translate to doubles (except for valve drills .... there's more valves on doubles) and to whichever kind of diving you eventually get into (GUE or not).

That involves him buying a single tank wing. And an STA. And then as soon as he has passed (if he does I don't know him) then paying for more training. To then go back for an upgrade. Sounds like hassle to me.

Alternatively, he could dive in the configuration he wants. At best pass (very nice) or realistically worst case scenario is a provisional. Which means he has 6 months to pass. Using all the skills he has learnt, saving money, and diving in the configuration he wants.

Everyone is different. But if my plan was to dive in a twinset and people were telling me to do my training in a single tank, which was going to cost me more I'd think they had lost their minds.

In the real world passing fundamentals means next to nothing unless you want to do T/C1. It's about learning stuff. If you want a relatively obscure card then it might be easier to do get in a single tank config but it's not going to help him get to where he wants with his diving.

 

[stuartv]

I recently did a buoyancy trim and propulsion workshop with a GUE instructor and while I don't agree with ALL of GUE thoughts and practices I still want to take the Fundamentals course and want to do tech diving in the future. Im thinking of the fundamentals in the 2018 fall/winter

I currently use a tusa X wing back inflate BCD i have 2 tanks (1-120 1-149)
my dilema is Im still learning to dive and wondering if I should get more experience under my belt before I jump to doubles? Since Doubles will be in my future hopefully sooner than later why prolong a single tank?
Im thinking of twin 120s or 130s

any advice on BPW?
I dive dry and will have steel tank(s) im thinking a SS backplate. Id guess Id need about 40lbs lift?
any brands to reccomend or stay away from? Almost everyone around here that Ive got close enough to see dives Halcyon stuff.............

thanks!!

From everything I've heard about Fundies, you should go in with the idea of learning a lot that you can take away and continue to work on - not the idea that you are going in to get some level of Pass. And if you go in planning to just learn a lot and not worry about a Pass, then I don't see why you would shy away from doing it in the dry suit you're already comfortable in and doubles.

Regarding your specific questions: My opinions, for what they're worth: SS back plate. Any brand. My first BP was a DSS SS BP. I just sold it a couple of months ago. My dedicated doubles rig has a Blue Reef SS BP that was $70 from Leisure Pro and I like it just fine. My single tank rig is a Freedom Contour plate. For diving doubles, I can't see any reason to spend more for a BP than what the Blue Reef one costs.

For a wing, I would not get anything smaller than a 45 and I don't think you'd regret a 60.

I dive double steel 120s. I started diving them on dive #49. I never found them to be an issue. I'm 6' 1" and (currently) 240 and the weight of them has never been a problem for me. I bought a set of double steel 100s and had them for a while. When I finally admitted to myself that I was never using them (I think I may have done 4 dives with them ever) and probably not going to ever use them again, I sold them. I just have 2 sets of double 120s now. The 100s were too small (for what I wanted). Why would I ever dive the 100s when I have the option sitting right there to carry 20% more gas on the same dive? I've done more rec/NDL diving than tech diving since I started diving doubles, but I still always use my doubles when I can. The only times I have dived with a single tank, since dive #49, is when I'm working with a class or the two times I have flown somewhere to dive. I mostly drive to dive and always take my doubles. It's especially nice on a "two tank" boat dive. No swapping rigs to a new tank between dives and whatever gas I had leftover after the first dive is that much extra I have available during the second dive.

FWIW, my tech instructor started every Adv Nitrox/Deco Procedures class with a rule of thumb recommendation to his students to start with double 100s. I took his class and then ended up starting Divemaster training with him and helping him with further tech classes. Pretty much every student bought double 100s (except me - I found a sweet deal on my first set of used double 120s), did the class, and just about every one that I have kept in touch with was soon looking to replace them with something bigger. Except for one woman who was not very big.

 

[stuartv]

I meant to add: I used a Dive Rite Rec EXP wing. It is 45# of lift. It works great with double 120s, which are 7.25" diameter. I think it might be a bit too narrow to give full lift if it were to be used with 8" diameter tanks (e.g. HP130s). Also, I definitely would not want a wing with any LESS lift when using steel 120s. And, though they market is as also being good for use with a single tank, I would definitely NOT use it for single tank diving, either. It's too wide and too much lift (i.e. too much empty wing flopping around).

I later bought a Dive Rite Classic XT wing, which is 60# of lift. I use that now when I'm carrying deco cylinders.

Final thought: Be aware that there is more to a wing than just its lift. I have now owned wings from Dive Rite, HOG, Deep Sea Supply, OMS, Halcyon, and Oxycheq. What I have found is that the shape of the wing determines where it gives its lift. This has a direct effect on your trim. With my setup, both my Dive Rite wings allow me to get flat in the water with just my SS BP and (depending on how cold it is) a soft V-weight. So did the OMS wing. With the Oxycheq and Halcyon wings, the only way I could get flat in the water and stay there (and keep my fins still at the same time) was if I were to put a tail weight on. Otherwise, with those wings, I was constantly fighting to keep from tipping head down. If I positioned myself to be slightly head up, then the Halcyon and Oxy were fine. I could stay slightly head up and still. But, as soon as I would go truly horizontal, with either of those wings, I would start to tip forward.

I attribute all that to the difference in the shape of the wings and where it positions the actual air inside when you are in different positions. If you look at, for example, the Halcyon (Explorer 55 is what I had), it's wider at the bottom. Thus, it seems that when you get totally flat, more of the air in the wing will move to the wider part - i.e. towards your butt. That's because when you are flat, the wide part of the wing means it will float up higher from the back. In contrast, both my Dive Rite wings are pretty much cylindrical down the sides. They stay roughly the same diameter from top to bottom. So, they keep the air more evenly distributed between your head and feet when you get flat.

I now only use my 2 DR wings for diving doubles and with those, I can get a little head up and stay that way (while keeping my fins still) and I can get flat and stay that way. All without needing a tail weight, which I really didn't want.

Final final thought: Double steels may be more head heavy than the single tank rigs you've been diving. To avoid needing a tail weight, no matter which wing you get, you MIGHT end up wanting fins that are more negatively buoyant than whatever you are using now. If you get some doubles and start tipping forward, more negative fins is at least something to consider. When I dive dry, I'm always also in doubles and I use the Hollis F1 fins because they are among the most negative fins that I know of. Fortunately, they also work EXTREMELY well for technical kicks. ScubaPro Jet fins are also reputed to be very negative in their buoyancy, but I have never tried (or weighed) any. My XL sized F1 fins are 2.0# negative in fresh water.

Just some additional info to keep in mind when shopping for a wing...

 

[Lorenzoid]

I recently did a buoyancy trim and propulsion workshop with a GUE instructor and while I don't agree with ALL of GUE thoughts and practices I still want to take the Fundamentals course and want to do tech diving in the future. Im thinking of the fundamentals in the 2018 fall/winter

I currently use a tusa X wing back inflate BCD i have 2 tanks (1-120 1-149)
my dilema is Im still learning to dive and wondering if I should get more experience under my belt before I jump to doubles? Since Doubles will be in my future hopefully sooner than later why prolong a single tank?
Im thinking of twin 120s or 130s

I think it depends on your learning style. I have found that what works best for me is taking things in small chunks. I did Fundies in wetsuit and single tank--and even keeping it that simple I still didn't pass the first time around. If you're already comfortable diving in a drysuit, then take Fundies in a drysuit, but consider making it easier on yourself by using the single tank configuration that you're familiar with.

After Fundies, I sought some advice for moving on to doubles and drysuit, and while some people advised me to add only one new thing at a time, I followed the alternative line of reasoning--that I might as well tackle doubles and drysuit together, since that was my ultimate goal. So I acquired a set of doubles and took a combined Doubles Primer and Drysuit Primer course. In hindsight, I bit off a little more than I could chew. I should have learned to dive a drysuit with a single tank first, practiced with that for a while, THEN added the doubles. For me, adding only one new thing at a time works best. I know that now going forward. I think it's an individual thing.

 

[stuartv]

Do you think it took you longer, overall, to get comfortable with drysuit and doubles, by doing them both "at once" than it would have if you took them on one at a time? I can understand that it might have seemed really hard - maybe even too hard - at the start of taking them both on at once. But, in retrospect, do you think it actually hurt you? Or was it just really hard?

Regardless, in the OP's case, he's already comfortable with diving dry, so I don't see it being a big deal to add doubles. When the only thing you're changing is going from single tank to doubles, I don't think it's that hard at all. You just need to make sure you've got your gear configured properly and then spend a session or two tweaking the setup and weighting to get your trim dialed in. Conversely, if you don't take the time up front to get your weight and weight distribution and things like BP position, wing position, and tank position all sorted out so that your trim is good, you'll be fighting your trim constantly and that will make everything else you do a lot harder.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Do you think it took you longer, overall, to get comfortable with drysuit and doubles, by doing them both "at once" than it would have if you took them on one at a time?

I may be incorrect--we'll never know--but I believe it did. I really think I would have been better off first re-learning all the Fundies skills in a drysuit, until I was back up to rec pass level, before getting into doubles.

Regardless, in the OP's case, he's already comfortable with diving dry, so I don't see it being a big deal to add doubles. When the only thing you're changing is going from single tank to doubles, I don't think it's that hard at all.

Maybe. Not having gone that route, I really can't offer an opinion. Still, the argument could be made that every change in one's familiar gear configuration is one more thing that could get in the way of enabling one to absorb as much as possible from Fundies. Everything is pretty much the same except the valve drill. Learning the mechanics of the drills and techniques in whatever configuration is familiar, and then modifying the configuration seems like a reasonable alternative route to consider. Who knows. If the OP wants to go straight for the full GUE configuration, why not. As I recall you or someone saying above, he'll get plenty out of the course regardless.

For me, double tanks initially felt like I had a car on my back. Maneuvering felt like trying to turn the proverbial ocean liner. And those heavy Jets. Now, on the occasions when I switch back to the ol' Al 80 and my Deep 6 Eddys it feels like I have a feather on my back and slippers on my feet; I can do the Fundies skills pretty well in that configuration. Heck, I can practically do somersaults. But getting it all down again in the doubles and drysuit configuration continues to challenge me.

 

[Dave Bevan]

One thing to mention is you don't FAIL a fundies or doubles class. You just need more training so I think its way better for him to just do it in doubles and save the money on the wing and STA

 

[KevinNM]

One thing to mention is you don't FAIL a fundies or doubles class. You just need more training so I think its way better for him to just do it in doubles and save the money on the wing and STA

You can. I've done it.

There are critical skills that you MUST be able to perform to at least some degree. You don't have to do them per standard, but you have to do them at least in some way that shown you have some clue what you are supposed to be doing.

 

[HantsDiver]

For a wing, I would not get anything smaller than a 45 and I don't think you'd regret a 60.

He might if he does a GUE course... The instructors I know would not be impressed. They put great emphasis on streamlining. I don't think any of them would kick him off the course - but I am very certain all of them would make him use one of their 40lb wings.

I said this earlier - but I really do think that he should make these decisions with the gue instructor he is going to take the course with. They can have very particular ideas of what they like or not. One I know won't let people dive with braided hoses - and another dives himself with them.

Now I'm not knocking your idea - if I only had one wing it wouldn't be 40lb. But for a twinset only dive a 40lb wing is better and easier to manage. So is a donut rather than a horseshow in my opinion. But that's just my opinion. I'm just trying to point out that if I were the OP I would take any advice given on here with a pinch of salt.

One thing to mention is you don't FAIL a fundies or doubles class. You just need more training so I think its way better for him to just do it in doubles and save the money on the wing and STA

You can and it might not even be for diving reasons. You can turn up and do all the skills looking like the instructor. But if you act in a certain way you will fail. I think the question they ask if "would I want someone like this diving as part of my team". So if you went in mouthing off about their configuration, or if you argued with their ideas you would easily fail. Also try and light up a cig in front of an instructor. I'm not sure where they stand on e-cigs so you might get away with that one .

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . .
I said this earlier - but I really do think that he should make these decisions with the gue instructor he is going to take the course with. They can have very particular ideas of what they like or not. One I know won't let people dive with braided hoses - and another dives himself with them. . . .

This. The entire original question is probably best answered by a GUE instructor--preferably the one he plans to train with--rather than us rabble on the Internet. I know my instructor just loves it when I mention "someone on ScubaBoard said ___________."