Diver Training, Has It Really Been Watered Down???

[TMHeimer]

Funny that you mention that. I recall doing the drills with an octo in OW class, but it was referred to as buddy breathing. I only learned about the "old" buddy breathing with one reg technique after reading about it here on scubaboard.

Quite a few years ago the one reg buddy breathing was eliminated from the PADI OW course, so I've heard. The reason I heard was it was too complicated for today's average diver to remember, so with all the "complicated" steps, it could lead to creating more problems. It is (was?) still a requirement in the DM course. As another poster said, many of today's divers are tropical "vacation" divers having their hands held, so to speak. Another line of thought is that traditional buddy breathing need not be known since the invention of the Octo. I still think it's a good skill to know--perhaps for some rare situation with this or that reg not working--as well as it simply being a "task-loading" skill, such as the DM course "equipment exchange". I don't think it is a good idea to "water down" courses with the idea that most divers aren't going to really practice the 20 (24 now?) skills once certified. Though that was the case with me and my OW buddy, I changed my tune after taking Rescue.
This is akin to my thread on Agencies forum regarding the elimination of rescue breaths (for non-water rescues) as part of the EFR (CPR) course.
In the case of buddy breathing and rescue breaths, I think this stuff is easy enough to remember if you just practice a little. Not rocket science.
Diving is serious business. I didn't get certified until we moved to the ocean, as I would have felt very uncomfortable diving one or 2 weeks per year in the tropics. And I had a lifetime of snorkeling/water activities before doing OW. It only makes sense to get the most skills you can and practice them, at least now and then.

 

[shurite7]

Quite a few years ago the one reg buddy breathing was eliminated from the PADI OW course, so I've heard. The reason I heard was it was too complicated for today's average diver to remember, so with all the "complicated" steps, it could lead to creating more problems. It is (was?) still a requirement in the DM course. As another poster said, many of today's divers are tropical "vacation" divers having their hands held, so to speak. Another line of thought is that traditional buddy breathing need not be known since the invention of the Octo. I still think it's a good skill to know--perhaps for some rare situation with this or that reg not working--as well as it simply being a "task-loading" skill, such as the DM course "equipment exchange". I don't think it is a good idea to "water down" courses with the idea that most divers aren't going to really practice the 20 (24 now?) skills once certified. Though that was the case with me and my OW buddy, I changed my tune after taking Rescue.
This is akin to my thread on Agencies forum regarding the elimination of rescue breaths (for non-water rescues) as part of the EFR (CPR) course.
In the case of buddy breathing and rescue breaths, I think this stuff is easy enough to remember if you just practice a little. Not rocket science.
Diving is serious business. I didn't get certified until we moved to the ocean, as I would have felt very uncomfortable diving one or 2 weeks per year in the tropics. And I had a lifetime of snorkeling/water activities before doing OW. It only makes sense to get the most skills you can and practice them, at least now and then.

The reason buddy breathing has been removed is a valid one which makes more sense than keeping an old skill. You mentioned it above, the alternate second stage. Why teach people a skill that runs a higher risk vs. one that doesn't? Buddy breathing requires practice, preferably with a consistent buddy. The reality is many people don't take the dedicated time to practice which is another reason not to teach buddy breathing to beginners.

In all my situations with sharing gas (always as the donor - i used to live in the islands and now dive in cold mountain lakes where I have donated quite a bit) people have reverted to the way they were trained, take or receive the alternate. The alternate second stage has made buddy breathing (which I learned when I first started diving) obsolete.

For those who have a consistent buddy and want to use the skill, great! Go for it. Practice. Why bother complaining because most others are not taught a skill that is no longer needed due to the advancement in equipment. For those who want to advance in their training then they can learn to buddy breathe, if the skill may be needed, later on in their diving career.

Removing a skill because it is obsolete isn't watering down a course, rather it is a decision from dilegent observation and critical thinking.

 

[boulderjohn]

Removing a skill because it is obsolete isn't watering down a course, rather it is a decision from dilegent observation and critical thinking.

In a recent thread on this topic, someone brought up the full set of standards from a quarter century ago. Single regulator buddy breathing was the only skill from that set that was not still required. (If you count teaching computers instead of tables in SOME version of the course.) I then listed 15 skills that were added since then.

I know it is fashionable to rage about how things have been watered down in the last quarter century, but the problem is the facts are very different. They are, in fact, just the opposite.

Many people make the mistake, pointed out many times in this thread, of comparing the class they took with a class they saw recently. They assume the instruction they received back in the day was representative of all instruction then and the recent course they saw was representative of all instruction now. I have seen countless courses taught since I became an instructor, and every one of them was far, far, far more thorough than the one I took decades ago.

 

[Diver-Drex]

From 1984 to 1999 I dove with no octo or computer. Didn’t dive again until 2012 and was introduced to both when I took OW again. Both are clearly great advancements.
When I did the DM equipment exchange I didn’t give the buddy breathing a second thought, it was quite easy having been taught to buddy breath. The person I did the exchange with struggled with buddy breathing, they learned with an octo.
The chances of needing to buddy breath are pretty remote. But it’s not a very difficult skill and I don’t think this diver didn’t know what to do. It seemed like they were desperately reaching for the reg after only a few seconds. Maybe the training value is just being comfortable in the water without a reg in your mouth?

 

[boulderjohn]

Maybe the training value is just being comfortable in the water without a reg in your mouth?

That's easy to do in the bottom of a pool with the surface a few feet above you.

A couple of decades ago, UC Berkeley professor and former NAUI director Glen Egstrom studied buddy breathing. He determined that it took an average of 17 successful practice experiences before a buddy team could be fully expected to perform the skill in a real OOA situation. He further determined that the buddy team must practice regularly to maintain the skills.

In the era of the alternate second stage, the only case of buddy breathing I know of happened in Florida aout 6 years ago (IIRC) when a woman rented a regulator set without an octo and then tried to help an OOA diver via buddy breathing. They both drowned.

 

[Diver-Drex]

Interesting study. I don’t remember it being that hard but I have never had to buddy breath in an actual OOG.

As I said the octo is a great advancement and the chances of having to buddy breath are remote. My point is that even though the skill is obsolete there is training value in not panicking when you don’t have a breathing source for a few seconds.

Isn’t every OW skill taught in a pool with the surface a few feet away? You have to start somewhere.

 

[Bob DBF]

The only case of buddy breathing I know of happened in Florida aout 6 years ago (IIRC) when a woman rented a regulator set without an octo and then tried to help an OOA diver via buddy breathing. They both drowned.

In that case were either one of the participants trained to buddy breathe?

I have had to buddy breathe once, a stranger as I was solo, and the most important issue in buddy breathing is for the donor to maintain control of the reg and situation. This can be problematic depending on the level of panic of the OOA diver. At the time it happened all divers were taught buddy breathing so at least it was not an unknown situation as it would be today. Not something I would like to do on a regular basis.

I did adopt a second second stage as soon as my budget would allow.


Bob

 

[TMHeimer]

Recent posts note the pros and cons of traditional buddy breathing. Perhaps I overreacted in grouping its removal as part of "watering down" of OW courses. Maybe my point should have been more in line with those saying it's just a task-loading skill, presenting someone with a situation where the reg is not always in your mouth.

Regarding real OOA situations, I have never been involved with or witnessed one. Several instructors I assisted told classes that, to paraphrase-- "We teach you the proper way to do the OOA drill, but it has been my experience that the OOA diver usually just grabs for the first 2nd stage available, usually the one in your mouth".
That's what they said anyway.
Considering that-----
Perhaps even learning use of Octo, like the old buddy breathing, is not very helpful if IT also is not practiced and with a regular buddy? just a thought. What think you guys?

As basically a solo diver now, I haven't had anyone to practice OOA with for 3 years, since my last OW course. I do physically go through the motions by myself for that and most of the other skills (unit removal, etc.) once a week. My guess is I'm more the exception than the norm.

 

[Bob DBF]

Maybe my point should have been more in line with those saying it's just a task-loading skill, presenting someone with a situation where the reg is not always in your mouth.

Even when not buddy breathing there are a number of reasons a diver should be able to function for a reasonable amount of time without a reg in their mouth.

Several instructors I assisted told classes that, to paraphrase-- "We teach you the proper way to do the OOA drill, but it has been my experience that the OOA diver usually just grabs for the first 2nd stage available, usually the one in your mouth".
That's what they said anyway.
Considering that-----
Perhaps even learning use of Octo, like the old buddy breathing, is not very helpful if IT also is not practiced and with a regular buddy? just a thought. What think you guys?

Watermanship skills were a large part of scuba in the early days as it was necessary. As technology advanced, single hose regs, SPG, and BC for example, the level of water skills needed prior were no longer as necessary. This has continued to the point that one needs little water skills to be certified. The issue I have is that it is water skills that give one a larger margin of safety when thing go pear shaped. Having your primary second quit and your alternate out of place is one of many.

Getting a reg kicked out of the mouth, needing to switch to an alternate, yours or others, or even needing to ditch your rig are reasons to be able to function without a reg. One cannot assume that everything will go perfectly, even when going to your own alternate. The longer you can go without a reg the longer it takes to panic.


Bob

 

[tom lauder]

In my experience training has been watered down but not in the sense of the number or type of skills but in the time spent on those skills and the level of skill that has to be demonstrated in order to be considered competent. When I first got certified demonstrating a skill once was not sufficient.

Admittedly my first certification was done in the club system common in the UK where there was no financial incentive to pass anyone let alone everyone. My instructors were also my dive buddies so their motivation was to train someone who they would be comfortable diving with. I know everyone i dived with was trained to the same level as i was because we all had to complete a final test with a regional coach, my instructor couldnt certify me. People didn't pass occasionally and that was considered ok. It sounds to me from what I have read here that my training was not that diiferent from that described by the guys who were certified by LA County.

I dont have an issue with the current training, I understand that PADI is a business and has done a good job of growing diving worldwide, but they have done so by simplifying and reducing training standards that is beyond dispute. An idealist would say its necessary to be inclusive and to expand opportunities for people, grow or die. A cynic would say its a money making scheme that reduces standards in order to create additional levels of training which all cost money, capitalism at work.

When I first trained the PADI divers that came to the club claiming to be certified could not pass the tests without additional training, the general attitude to PADI at that time in that place was very much the latter view above. I'm a little more circumspect now and having moved country, I now dive PADI because thats whats here. The fact that I am restricted to 18m tells me that PADI understands the training is limited. My first certification was good to 50m with tables. Today thats considered tec diving, back then it was just diving.

Diving has changed and training has changed which came first is a matter for debate. As I said above the question for me is really why does it matter, there are orgs for everyone. If your a vacation diver who only wants a c card to dive a few times a year you can do that. If you want to do deep wreck or cave penetrations theres an org for that too.

In a recent thread on this topic, someone brought up the full set of standards from a quarter century ago. Single regulator buddy breathing was the only skill from that set that was not still required. (If you count teaching computers instead of tables in SOME version of the course.) I then listed 15 skills that were added since then.

I know it is fashionable to rage about how things have been watered down in the last quarter century, but the problem is the facts are very different. They are, in fact, just the opposite.

Many people make the mistake, pointed out many times in this thread, of comparing the class they took with a class they saw recently. They assume the instruction they received back in the day was representative of all instruction then and the recent course they saw was representative of all instruction now. I have seen countless courses taught since I became an instructor, and every one of them was far, far, far more thorough than the one I took decades ago.