Anti-Fogging Treatments for New Masks. (a comparison of techniques)

[lowviz]

OK, it feels like we really got somewhere with this project and it is now time to pull it all together in a proper write-up. >SIGH< untangling this thread is no small task.

So, my take on this is that we have (as a team through some wonky multi-national approach) successfully re-discovered the important (to us) bits of 1970's glass technology and applied it to our shared nemesis, mask fogging. Most satisfying.

Note that the detractors in this thread were every bit as valuable as the proponents for various mask treatments. Keeps it real. "Science, Baby!" (S. Rehberg, a machinist's quote from my previous life.)

Yeah, I know. Shut up and start writing...

 

[tridacna]

Please publish in the the Journal of Irreproducible Research.

 

[Johnoly]

... pull it all together in a proper write-up.....

In the beginning of every book the author always says " I dedicate this to my loving wife and children, etc, etc"
You should skip that and replace it with your quote in post # 457. That just summed up everything !!

Sometimes you have to tame the beast before you spit on it...

 

[lowviz]

This post is the header to the post-by-post write-up 'explanation' for all those who directly contributed to the progress of this thread.

After that, I'll do a shorty 'sound bite' and ask a mod to link it to Post #1 for those casual readers who just read post #1 and want to know the outcome.

All participants:

As simple as it seems that it should be, treatments to alleviate mask fogging remain a subject of hot debate. I remain surprised that one definitive answer has not been found long ago.

This is both a complex and complicated problem so we needed to make some initial assumptions and simplifications:

"In the 800-plus years since Friar William laid down his maxim, logicians have turned it into a rule: Occam's razor. Occam's razor simply states that of any given set of explanations for an event occurring, the simplest one is most likely the correct one."

Two research articles (Post #425) have become the foundation for simple explanations for almost all of the mask fogging observations in this thread. Please note well that there are respondents who diligently question every premise that is proposed as a solution to the problem. This allows us to claim peer review. I will attempt to step through all the relevant observations in this thread and explain them.

Also, note that the very most polite posters have continued posting in this thread even though a few of us much more ‘direct’ posters can’t seem to resist taking an occasional good-natured ‘swat’ at each other. It is all good.

You know that your team is in trouble when the most polite participants start going silent. Didn't happen here. Everyone’s suggestions and observations have been subject to the same level of critical team analysis yet it appears that everyone still felt comfortable with contributing. Most satisfying. Success is shared when everyone can think back to something valuable that they contributed.

A post-by-post 'best explanation' of observations should be done sometime tonight, (eastern USA time).

 

[lowviz]

Chronological Review of this Thread

Basic Premise:

As simple as it seems that it should be, treatments to alleviate mask fogging remain a subject of hot debate. I remain surprised that one definitive answer has not been found long ago.

So, I would like to investigate this in a scientific way. This thread is a spin-off of Glass lens frameless Mask fogging issue in order to avoid a hijack of the OP’s original thread.

Following our finding a successful treatment, we are now trying to determine the simplest explanation that answers all of the past questions, experiences, and experiments posted in this thread by many contributing ScubaBoard members. An upcoming post-by-post review of this thread (supported by scientific publications) is my best guess as to an explanation. Please feel free to challenge or correct (as always).

We have determined (and confirmed by multiple posters) that simply soaking a glass-lens dive mask in commercially available household ammonia solution is extremely effective at reducing a mask’s ability to fog. It appears that a slightly more efficient treatment is to place the mask in a dishwasher and use commonly available high-alkaline dishwasher soap as a vigorous pre-clean before the ammonia soak. Effective room temperature soak times in ammonia solution were determined to be variable: three days to two weeks of total submersion of lens, frame, skirt, and strap. It appears likely that there are faster methods to ‘season’ a mask, but these require more hazardous chemicals and/or harsh temperatures.

All glass lenses, even those of the same batch of bulk glass, are not the same. This statement will be substantiated in an upcoming post.

It is also important to note that all dive masks, no matter how well seasoned, require some sort of defog treatment. 1/100 pure-water diluted J&J Baby Shampoo was found to be a minimally effective defog and was used as the standard defog treatment for comparison purposes. The ideal dilution for routine diving appears to be near a 1/10 dilution. Higher concentrations and much lower concentrations report either smearing or ineffectiveness. The ideal concentration, if one even exists for all masks, was not determined. There are many effective defogs in everyday use. None of these are addressed other than that some sort of defogging procedure is absolutely required even for the cleanest and most highly seasoned mask.

Next is an attempt to use a single review article to go back and answer selected posts in this thread in chronological order.

 

[Pearlman]

Chronological Review of this Thread
Effective room temperature soak times in ammonia solution were determined to be variable: three days to two weeks of total submersion of lens, frame, skirt, and strap. It appears likely that there are faster methods to ‘season’ a mask, but these require more hazardous chemicals and/or harsh temperatures..

Duh! All it took was 2 minutes of a lighter flame for my mask to stay clear on the next dive trip one year later ...

I applaud your single minded pursuit of experimentation in the acquisition of knowledge through sheer persistence though...

Cheers

 

[-JD-]

Duh! All it took was 2 minutes of a lighter flame for my mask to stay clear on the next dive trip one year later ...
-snip-

(Emphasis mine.) So you have 1 data point and out come the snark? Well feels kinda snarky ...

 

[RayfromTX]

The hard work put in on this is like much of the work of science and the study of methodology. In the end a simple answer presents itself or reasserts itself. It doesn't mean the work was in vain but it does mean we can perhaps move on in the knowledge of what is good and what is not necessary.

What I have learned is that my method that works great and without fail can't be improved on by any method that we have experimented with here. Since any method requires a predive treatment with a surfactant, then my methods will remain in place for my diving.

I use a flame to remove the silicone film. It is fast, effective and I have done it for others on the boat on the way to the dive site. I then use sea drops gold. I avoid the gel and use the regular cleaner/antifog. I put as tiny an amount as possible on the mask lenses when I put the mask away. When I am a few minutes from diving(gearing up), I put a smile amount of water in the mask and let it sit next to me on the bench. I never touch or rub the mask. After a few minutes, the excess has dissolved into the water. I dump it out and go diving. This product works better than baby shampoo. It will last for multiple dives but I redo it in between dives for safety and because it is easy. On the occasions that we have forgotten to redo it on the surface interval we fear not and just dive it. We haven't had any issues with fogging since using sea drops gold. If you use the smallest drop possible, a bottle will last a long time and ours gets used for most of the masks on boats we are on. We don't pass the bottle around because people waste it and it is counterproductive to use more than a very thin film because it means more to rinse off. I put a big drop on my finger and touch it to each mask and then let them smear it around. It also kills the coronavirus as it is a fat dissolving soap so no fear of spreading a virus.

Hey let's go diving.

 

[tridacna]

The hard work put in on this is like much of the work of science and the study of methodology. In the end a simple answer presents itself or reasserts itself. It doesn't mean the work was in vain but it does mean we can perhaps move on in the knowledge of what is good and what is not necessary.

What I have learned is that my method that works great and without fail can't be improved on by any method that we have experimented with here. Since any method requires a predive treatment with a surfactant, then my methods will remain in place for my diving.

I use a flame to remove the silicone film. It is fast, effective and I have done it for others on the boat on the way to the dive site. I then use sea drops gold. I avoid the gel and use the regular cleaner/antifog. I put as tiny an amount as possible on the mask lenses when I put the mask away. When I am a few minutes from diving(gearing up), I put a smile amount of water in the mask and let it sit next to me on the bench. I never touch or rub the mask. After a few minutes, the excess has dissolved into the water. I dump it out and go diving. This product works better than baby shampoo. It will last for multiple dives but I redo it in between dives for safety and because it is easy. On the occasions that we have forgotten to redo it on the surface interval we fear not and just dive it. We haven't had any issues with fogging since using sea drops gold. If you use the smallest drop possible, a bottle will last a long time and ours gets used for most of the masks on boats we are on. We don't pass the bottle around because people waste it and it is counterproductive to use more than a very thin film because it means more to rinse off. I put a big drop on my finger and touch it to each mask and then let them smear it around. It also kills the coronavirus as it is a fat dissolving soap so no fear of spreading a virus.

Hey let's go diving.

Your method does not work for my mask. So in our new sample size of 2, your method Is no better than a flip of the proverbial coin. Fail.

Now let @lowviz do his thing in peace please...

 

[johndiver999]

The hard work put in on this is like much of the work of science and the study of methodology. In the end a simple answer presents itself or reasserts itself. It doesn't mean the work was in vain but it does mean we can perhaps move on in the knowledge of what is good and what is not necessary.

What I have learned is that my method that works great and without fail can't be improved on by any method that we have experimented with here. Since any method requires a predive treatment with a surfactant, then my methods will remain in place for my diving.

I use a flame to remove the silicone film. It is fast, effective and I have done it for others on the boat on the way to the dive site. I then use sea drops gold. I avoid the gel and use the regular cleaner/antifog. I put as tiny an amount as possible on the mask lenses when I put the mask away. When I am a few minutes from diving(gearing up), I put a smile amount of water in the mask and let it sit next to me on the bench. I never touch or rub the mask. After a few minutes, the excess has dissolved into the water. I dump it out and go diving. This product works better than baby shampoo. It will last for multiple dives but I redo it in between dives for safety and because it is easy. On the occasions that we have forgotten to redo it on the surface interval we fear not and just dive it. We haven't had any issues with fogging since using sea drops gold. If you use the smallest drop possible, a bottle will last a long time and ours gets used for most of the masks on boats we are on. We don't pass the bottle around because people waste it and it is counterproductive to use more than a very thin film because it means more to rinse off. I put a big drop on my finger and touch it to each mask and then let them smear it around. It also kills the coronavirus as it is a fat dissolving soap so no fear of spreading a virus.

Hey let's go diving.

Are you really claiming (with authority as a staff member) and from a scientific standpoint,that this material kills the virus?

Spreading material from one mask to another, for everyone on a boat is something I would find unwelcome.