AOW/Rescue Diver Not Respected

[Diving Dubai]

I don't understand the frustration of @Aguablanco1 at all. I've been away divign for the last few days hence late to this thread

To re-iterate points made earlier.

Respect is Earned and not given.

I'm happy with check dives. Normally I dive steels so when away and have to dive AL I use the check as an idiot check on myself for weighting, making sure the gear has traveled okay, and yes check out my guide.

In my experience the people who complain the loudest are the one's that require watching the most.

On the flip side as a guide, all I know about you is your certification level, number of (claimed) dives, and number of years diving. Perhaps in my group I have 3 people. The first two have less than 50 dives with diving experience form a few months to a couple of years and are similarly experienced, they will probably be very open on their experience and limits, The third has has been diving for 10 years is a DM and has between 100-200 dives. That's all I have to go on.

I'm a firm believer in not judging a book by the cover, I will watch the kit up etc and will chat to them all trying to get a picture in my mind, but that's still not a lot.

I don't worry about people faffing on the surface at the first dive as they may have been out of the water for a while and need a dive or two to get back into the zone, it's the descent and buoyancy at the bottom where I start to form my judgements. Like most OP's we don't allow camera's on the first dive, but I do recommend taking the housing to ensure it doesn't leak

Then I have to ask for gas contents, people may feel that I'm asking too frequently at first. This isn't out of trust, I'm tryign to remember everyone's contents, and work out their consumption and remember that - so some of the requests are me checking my own mental picture. By the end of the check dive I'll have a good idea which may require a discrete shuffling of the groups to put people of similar standards and consumption together. The only skill you will be made to carry out is a DSMB deployment at 6m - this will have been discussed before hand, and you wil be given a free lesson if needed

The check is for you to asses me also, am I going to fast, too slow, not showing you what you want showing too much etc. I'm not omnipotence and what works for one group may not work for another.

So the check is for me to balance the groups to ensure all the paying customers have a good time. I need to ensure I conduct a safe dive within the capabilities of my group, which may well be different for what some members think they're capable of. If your having issues with easy dives there is no way I'm taking you into big current with the advance group. At the end of the day I have a legal responsibility as well as a responsibility to balance the needs and desires of the group and giving them (as far as possible) their money's worth.

Often a challenge.

 

[AfterDark]

There was a time when ligament credentials of any sort were given a measure of respect. Ligament credential, certs. for diving these days are no assurance of anything much beyond the diver showed up and paid, too give them much respect could be a mistake. Most tech diving certs are the real deal because they teach diving the way it should be taught, like your life depended on your training. In the early days of diving that was also how it was taught, and a measure of respect for just what a diver is doing when they submerge was ingrained in the student That has been replaced with I far as I can tell an amusement park mentality, that becomes dangerous when it meets reality. Respect performance not cards

 

[Shaun Delport]

When on a dive with AOW/rescue/EFR, DM, Instructor level group, one would expect it to be a relatively fun and relaxing dive/s. Alas, in my home waters, Aliwal Shoal and east coast of South Africa, currents vary from mild to WILD. We dive off a duck and trail a buoy-line for the skipper to follow.
Too often it has happened that a DM or similar has run into trouble due to professed experienced diver not being able to handle current or rip. As mentioned in OP above, intro dive is frustrating but until you have had to pick up dropped weights, assist buoyancy control, 3 divers hanging off you due to underweight on a safety stop...list is endless, you learn to pick out the talk from the walk. The intro dive will become tolerable when you understand how many people can talk but not walk.

 

[Damselfish]

Like most OP's we don't allow camera's on the first dive, but I do recommend taking the housing to ensure it doesn't leak.

That's a new one to me, perhaps it is local to your area? I've never seen a dive op that says you can't take a camera on the first dive, and we've used a lot of dive ops. I could maybe see recommending it to someone obviously new and not sorted out, but as a blanket rule not so much. One problem with this is that large camera/housing setups can significantly affect weighting, so not allowing the camera makes the checkout dive less useful for checking weights. Or anything else about the camera - controls, operation of strobes, etc, which is exactly what a serious photographer might want to do on a mellow checkout dive.

 

[DustyC]

Another reason to do them, I'm a DM. Part of the way through my first tec class. Looking at advanced wreck, Tri-mix, and cavern next year. I'm knocking on the door of 1,000 dives.

20ish are salt water, none in a real current, and only clear, tropical water.

I'm nowhere near qualified, DM or not, to do a 100 ft non penetration wreck dive in the northeast. I have lots of cards, but those are meaningless for types of dives I've never done. I know OW divers more qualified than I am for those dives

 

[Diving Dubai]

That's a new one to me, perhaps it is local to your area? I've never seen a dive op that says you can't take a camera on the first dive, and we've used a lot of dive ops.

It's not just the rule here, I've been on vacation dives when the Op's have done the same. Now here's the conundrum. If someone turns up with a huge rig, it's kinda unlikely it's their first time out. The no cameras is there really for the newer diver with their first camera. I don't want them distracted on the first dive. Exceptions are made for the big rigs.

That's the thing about guiding, there are few hard and fast rules, and common sense is required.

 

[Spinal33]

Based on the acronyms used, I'm assuming we are talking PADI here.

In which case, page 20 of the Instructor Manual states that for continuing education courses and open water dive referrals, the instructor needs to assess the divers readiness (in-water) and remediate before training progresses.

Now, I'm aware that the OP was probably referring to pleasure dives rather than continuing education; but wouldn't a prudent center look at any dive led by a PADI Professional (DM, AI, or Instructor) as one where they are exposing themselves to risk, and as such, should be prudent?

 

[Aguablanco1]

I am not frustrated, just disappointed. I understand that not all divers get in the water on a regular basis, but that is no reason to assume that all divers are dorks until proven otherwise. As a DM I rarely encounter any check out dives or questions regarding my ability any more. My question was actually wondering if the dive ops do this as much to generate money as to insure some level of safety. So many people on this forum like to say that we are all responsible for our own safety and dive profile that I am somewhat amazed that this issue has been so positive regarding check out dives. Is personal responsibility now really the responsibility of the dive op? If they say I am good to go and something untoward happens is it then the dive ops fault for not observing the behavior that led to the problem? It seems to me that the more a dive op checks out divers abilities the more responsibility and liability they assume since they are the ones that approved my skills. On the other hand, if they take my cards, logs or any other documentation at face value are they not allowing me to exercise my view of personal responsibility and limiting their liability? I don't see how it can be both ways. Either I dive on my own responsibility and liability, or I dive on their statement that, in their opinion, I am a good diver that can do today's dive and they are vouching for that by virtue of the fact that I passed their check out and the check, out was comprehensive enough to verify that their opinion is correct and legally defensible. Seems like a can of worms to me.
RichH

 

[tursiops]

I am not frustrated, just disappointed. I understand that not all divers get in the water on a regular basis, but that is no reason to assume that all divers are dorks until proven otherwise. As a DM I rarely encounter any check out dives or questions regarding my ability any more. My question was actually wondering if the dive ops do this as much to generate money as to insure some level of safety. So many people on this forum like to say that we are all responsible for our own safety and dive profile that I am somewhat amazed that this issue has been so positive regarding check out dives. Is personal responsibility now really the responsibility of the dive op? If they say I am good to go and something untoward happens is it then the dive ops fault for not observing the behavior that led to the problem? It seems to me that the more a dive op checks out divers abilities the more responsibility and liability they assume since they are the ones that approved my skills. On the other hand, if they take my cards, logs or any other documentation at face value are they not allowing me to exercise my view of personal responsibility and limiting their liability? I don't see how it can be both ways. Either I dive on my own responsibility and liability, or I dive on their statement that, in their opinion, I am a good diver that can do today's dive and they are vouching for that by virtue of the fact that I passed their check out and the check, out was comprehensive enough to verify that their opinion is correct and legally defensible. Seems like a can of worms to me.
RichH

If it were all about you, then maybe your "personal responsibility" claim would apply.
But it is not all about you. The trip/dive/liveaboard you are on has other people (greatly) affected if you screw up.

P.S. One of the worst divers I've encountered carries an (old) DM card. His card probably looks just like your card.

 

[Aguablanco1]

If it were all about you, then maybe your "personal responsibility" claim would apply.
But it is not all about you. The trip/dive/liveaboard you are on has other people (greatly) affected if you screw up.

P.S. One of the worst divers I've encountered carries an (old) DM card. His card probably looks just like your card.

Actually, and thanks for the back handed compliment, my DM card is only 3 years old and I stay current on EFR and CPR even though that is not required. I am also a Swiftwater Rescue Technician 1 because I whitewater raft various Class IV-V rivers. I take my hobbies very seriously when death or worse is in play. And I don't want, or expect, it to be all about me. Just the opposite, I don't want any of it to be about me and I have taken the steps to make sure, to the best of my ability, that it won't be about me. I also expect that others will take the same steps for the same reasons.

So one check out dive, most likely with other people that the DM has to watch, is sufficient to ensure a great trip for all. Interesting postulation. Like I said, I haven't had my credentials challenged in years, actually the opposite has happened. When I sign up for a dive and give them my DM card it seems to satisfy all of their potential questions. It has even made it easier for my OW wife to get on any dive she wants to with me. My real wonder is, is this mostly an easy way for dive ops to generate students and cash, at least as much as it is a "safety" protocol?
RichH