BP/W pocket quandary for women

[-hh]

Beano, did it ever occur to you that a lot of people don't see them as shortcomings?

Everything has trade-offs.

Here, we're talking about the trade-off of if a particular capability (a storage pocket) is better to be integrated into an existing piece of gear (the BC) or if another entire piece of gear needs to be added for it (shorts)...there is no single 'correct' answer: merely a trade.

YMMV, but I see a pair of shorts (to have pockets) as one more piece of kit to keep track of and to have in my gear-up/-down routine. Given that I've seen some divers put on wetsuits backwards, inside-out, etc...nothing can be made utterly foolproof, although it is well known from a Human Performance perspective - - Human Factors and Work Taskloading perspectives - - that having fewer time sensitive tasks is generally 'better' (more reliable/robust of a process).

This generally favors stuff that can be set up in advance into major subassemblies which get checked out beforehand (reduced time constraints), and not infrequently, one approach to this is to employ one's D-rings to clip on all of those accessories until one looks like a Christmas Tree (and then of course still claim that it is a 'more streamlined' setup!).

I couldn't use the pocket on my original BC -- it was too hard to reach in my dry suit and heavy insulation, and I couldn't work the zipper with my dry gloves.

A trade-off issue which doesn't exist for warmwater divers.

I don't like weight integration. I'm VERY happy with a weight belt, especially the nice rubber Mako one I now have. I think the weights are more secure, and easier to separate from the BC.

I don't care for weight integration either.

Fortunately, I've yet to encounter any BC which can't employ a separate weightbelt...although this too is a trade-off, as some designs are susceptible to a human error, namely if its submarine strap is hooked on after the weight belt, thereby trapping it and making it non-ditchable. Horsecollars and BP/W more typically have a submarine strap, thereby introducing this sequence-of-what-goes-on-when factor for consideration.

I don't need adjustable straps....

I have, or rather: the Quick Disconnect which typically accompanies them.

I've found that for some configurations of chase boats when drift diving, being able to pop a shoulder harness(es) is advantageous in that it can make it substantially safer: you can grab onto the boat (and not get bashed by it) and then strip your gear off while never allowing anything ... you or your gear ... to get loose, where it may get lost, or worse - get pulled through the props. Yes, in an ideal world all seas are always perfectly flat with no wind, and the engine will always be totally out of gear when picking up divers to make all pickups utterly trivial...but that's not the real world all too frequently. This is just YA example of a trade-off, for where the downright minuscule risk of a QD failure (1400+ hrs MTBF) does merits consideration in its trade-off versus other objective risks.

Similarly, if one is more frequently changing levels of thermal protection, having a more adaptable adjustment points isn't a horribly bad thing.

The bottom line to all of it is to make informed decisions of the trades, based upon one's individual prioritization of what the significant factors are for one's diving environment/conditions/constraints/priorities/etc.


-hh

 

[ekremer]

Everything has trade-offs.

Here, we're talking about the trade-off of if a particular capability (a storage pocket) is better to be integrated into an existing piece of gear (the BC) or if another entire piece of gear needs to be added for it (shorts)...there is no single 'correct' answer: merely a trade.

Like that pocket on your BC? Fine, add it to your backplate webbing no big deal.
Go nuts: BC Accessory Pockets by Dive Rite - Dive Gear Express

YMMV, but I see a pair of shorts (to have pockets) as one more piece of kit to keep track of and to have in my gear-up/-down routine. Given that I've seen some divers put on wetsuits backwards, inside-out, etc...nothing can be made utterly foolproof, although it is well known from a Human Performance perspective - - Human Factors and Work Taskloading perspectives - - that having fewer time sensitive tasks is generally 'better' (more reliable/robust of a process).

Other options include gluing a pocket to your wetsuit.
XS Scuba Drysuit/Wetsuit Pocket AC430 with reviews at scuba.com

This generally favors stuff that can be set up in advance into major subassemblies which get checked out beforehand (reduced time constraints), and not infrequently, one approach to this is to employ one's D-rings to clip on all of those accessories until one looks like a Christmas Tree (and then of course still claim that it is a 'more streamlined' setup!).

How much crap do you take? On a typical south florida dive I take attached to my bc. 1 light, bolt snapped to my right d-ring held in place by a velcro loop. 1 Natalis lifeline on a right d-ring and attached to the webing using the little pouch. 1 DAN DSMB with finger spool in a bag on my but. and 1 knife on my waist band. None of this is is dangling or sticking out.

Then I have some spear equipment that you just can't help dangling all over the place, at least I haven't figure out a really good way to rig it yet. No traditional BC can help with streamlining a spear gun, lobster stick, or catch bag.

I don't care for weight integration either.

Fortunately, I've yet to encounter any BC which can't employ a separate weightbelt...although this too is a trade-off, as some designs are susceptible to a human error, namely if its submarine strap is hooked on after the weight belt, thereby trapping it and making it non-ditchable. Horsecollars and BP/W more typically have a submarine strap, thereby introducing this sequence-of-what-goes-on-when factor for consideration.

I assume a submarine strap is a crotch strap? A lot of BP/W guys dive with their belt under the crotch strap on purpose. I have tried it both ways, and honestly even if you are not in your right mind to undo the strap, if you pull they do come out, not a big deal. Also, my Zeagle ranger had an optional crotch strap, and a lot of BP/W divers don't even bother with one.

I have, or rather: the Quick Disconnect which typically accompanies them.

I've found that for some configurations of chase boats when drift diving, being able to pop a shoulder harness(es) is advantageous in that it can make it substantially safer: you can grab onto the boat (and not get bashed by it) and then strip your gear off while never allowing anything ... you or your gear ... to get loose, where it may get lost, or worse - get pulled through the props. Yes, in an ideal world all seas are always perfectly flat with no wind, and the engine will always be totally out of gear when picking up divers to make all pickups utterly trivial...but that's not the real world all too frequently. This is just YA example of a trade-off, for where the downright minuscule risk of a QD failure (1400+ hrs MTBF) does merits consideration in its trade-off versus other objective risks.

Having a diver in the water next to a running propeller seems like a good way for a Darwin award, but OK. you really want a QD? put one in. hell tada
SCUBA Diving Equipment for Technical, Sidemount, Rebreather, Wreck and Cave Diving: Dive Rite, Inc - Product Catalog - Deluxe QR Harness
someone did that already.

Similarly, if one is more frequently changing levels of thermal protection, having a more adaptable adjustment points isn't a horribly bad thing.

The bottom line to all of it is to make informed decisions of the trades, based upon one's individual prioritization of what the significant factors are for one's diving environment/conditions/constraints/priorities/etc.

Actually I think for people who change thermal often a BP/W is way better, as you can swap out bladders. Diving cold, need more weight, throw on your cold water bladder.
Then if it is really a problem (I don't know our waters here stay the same temp most year round) it looks like guys like Halcyon have come up with a solution in their cinch harness. But I never found a simple webbing taking more than a few minutes to adjust.

 

[redacted]

And there are a bunch of people willing to put up with BP/W shortcomings and desperately work to minimize those shortcomings seemingly in an attempt to make their decision to use an oddball setup work.

I dove a jacket for quite a long time. When I finally switched to a BP/W, tjhe only thing I really missed was the hug when I needed it. What shortcomings are you talking about? Oh, my BP/W has pockets when and where I need them.

 

[dfx]

Like that pocket on your BC? Fine, add it to your backplate webbing no big deal.
Go nuts: BC Accessory Pockets by Dive Rite - Dive Gear Express

Or you get a jacket BCD, then you have that already

Other options include gluing a pocket to your wetsuit.
XS Scuba Drysuit/Wetsuit Pocket AC430 with reviews at scuba.com

Or you get a jacket BCD, then you have that already

Having a diver in the water next to a running propeller seems like a good way for a Darwin award, but OK. you really want a QD? put one in. hell tada
SCUBA Diving Equipment for Technical, Sidemount, Rebreather, Wreck and Cave Diving: Dive Rite, Inc - Product Catalog - Deluxe QR Harness
someone did that already.

Yes you're right, jacket BCDs already have that

But sure, BP/W is the way to go, right right...

 

[redacted]

Or you get a jacket BCD, then you have that already


Or you get a jacket BCD, then you have that already

Yes you're right, jacket BCDs already have that

But sure, BP/W is the way to go, right right...

Have you ever tried a BP/W?

 

[ekremer]

Or you get a jacket BCD, then you have that already


Or you get a jacket BCD, then you have that already


Yes you're right, jacket BCDs already have that

But sure, BP/W is the way to go, right right...

With all due respect, I was pointing out that these "downsides" don't actually exist, not that these are "features" that you can't get elsewhere.

If you want to talk about features you can't get elsewhere lets talk.
1) you remove all that unnecessary neoprene bulk that you have to compensate for underwater with more lead. (When I dove my ranger in a 3mm and a steel tank I was still diving 10 bls of lead, I now dive with a steel plate and dive with 0 lbs of lead, so the neoprene of my Ranger added an additional 4 lbs of bouyancy. assuming my plate and gear is about 6 lbs.
2) You put even more weight over your lungs instead of on your waist. This makes for a much more stable platform.
3) fit, I dove a ranger for my first 100 dives, I loved the damn thing, and then I lost 60 lbs. I went ahead and got a bp/w, since then I have lost another 40 lbs, and I have been able to keep shrinking my webbing, and it fits me perfect every time.
4) travel, There are a lot of newer travel bc's coming down the pipe, but comparing my full size bp/w to my full size ranger, there is no doubt. my backplate packs down to a tiny fraction of the volume as my Ranger did.
5) Construction. Every traditional bc I looked at pales in comparison to a steel or aluminum plate. You are not going to break a backplate, however the thin plastic backings in a traditional or back inflate BCD cannot compare.

 

[dfx]

With all due respect, I was pointing out that these "downsides" don't actually exist, not that these are "features" that you can't get elsewhere.

The downside is that all those things need to be added on, after the fact, as separate items. That's the definition of shortcoming: it doesn't have all that by default, but you can work around it if you really want to.

Or you can get something that already has everything you want included...

Have you ever tried a BP/W?

That's a trick question, right?

 

[ekremer]

The downside is that all those things need to be added on, after the fact, as separate items. That's the definition of shortcoming: it doesn't have all that by default, but you can work around it if you really want to.

Or you can get something that already has everything you want included...


That's a trick question, right?

Yeah you can order them from your LDS like that, and if you have a good LDS they will "come" with them pre-installed just the way you want them. It is like ordering options for your brand new car.

One can also say easy to maintain and replace when they get worn out.
I could not imagine replacing a QD, dump valve line, or pocket, or D-ring on something like this:
Tusa Platina Evolution BCD, Black (BCJ-3860) | LeisurePro

 

[redacted]

That's a trick question, right?

Not really. It should not be that difficult to answer with a simple yes or no. If yes, you should anticipate some followup on you experience.

 

[eelnoraa]

Or let me rephrase awap's question, have you tried using bp/w the proper way? Ie. with correctly adjusted everything, with the properly configured balanced rig?I am often surprised to see people in cold water diving choose to go all weight integrated. It makes the rig very unbalanced. In warm water, given the weight required isn't much, it may not be a issue. But I still much rather use a weight belt and a smaller wing than a big wing with all integrated weight.As for pocket, i think most people who gone with bp/w eventually realize thigh pockets are the way to go. Having the front cluster free is just more streamline