BP&W vs jacket BC, AGAIN!

[Paladin]

Dived BC-free from 1965 to 2009, bought a horse collar, then a jacket, then a BP/W. Hated the BP/W, sold it on Ebay and was happy to be rid of it. Now it's either horse collar, jacket or no BC at all.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

• I learned with a Mae West type thing.
• Bought a decent horse collar BC after certification (but with no power inflator) 1973-74?
• Used a horse collar for several years and then won a "jacket BC" in a contest with power inflator. (1981)?
• Power inflation was very nice, but even though EVERYONE said the jacket BC was best and great.. I didn't like it much. Too loose, poorly designed, external nylon covering would wear through in a few years..maybe 600 dives or something...Used a few models, bladder would always be popping out and had to glue the external nylon material and patch... wore out 3-4 of these types of BC.
• Bought a few old Scuba Pro Stab jackets... they were well used and would wear out in a year or so, they were somewhat better.
• Started using the more modern redesigned BC jackets with integrated bladder and adjustable front shoulder straps which allowed a decent fit for different exposure suit thickness... experimented with adding a crotch strap.. and it helped with stability... ripped out cummerbun and plastic buckle and replace with a rubber waist belt that compensated for depth.. large improvement...Ended up not using the crotch strap... not worth the trouble
• Tried the weight integration features hated it....Although sometimes add a little fixed lead for really thick suits for trim
• Read on Scuba Board how great BP/W was(2006)? maybe...and decided to try it...... NOT impressed with any aspect of it really.. no big difference in trim, more difficult to get into and out of...No noticable change in drag or swimming efficiency...Almost immediately added slides for the straps so that the shoulder and waist straps would slide and adjust (seems that halcyon copied my idea).. and this improved the function a lot. Also added a loop of bungi to fashion an elastic bungi crotch strap... a SIGNIFICANT improvement in function of crotch strap (but ridiculed on SB for the idea). Added neoprene shoulder straps (almost identical to the ones I saw George Irvine using), added a neoprene back pad to plate, had to add bungi restrictions to a small portion of the Dive rite Venture bladder behind the neck, because the idiots designed the bladder to push your neck down, finally figured out that the crotch strap was a real pain in the ass and not necessary for diving in thin exposure suits and was reasonably happy with rig..diving it for 5 years... The shoulder and waist D-Rings and configuration were the best for carrying a deco bottle, clipped off under my arm. I had to fashion custom made waist pockets for my harness to carry some supplies like a cannister for marine radio. Added the waist type DIR emergency back up knife/sheath to the harness.
• Tried a U-shaped bladder of different brand and absolutely hated it... discovered that donut shaped bladder is much, much better for me..Sold SS plate and u-shaped wing.
• Experimented with a few back inflate BC's... few hundered dives... they seemed Ok, not super impressed, disliked the face forward "push" while floating on the surface...sold them except one I kept which is too beat up to sell to anyone.. still dive it on some shallow baby dives for the hell of it. Seemed to have the negatives of the BP/W and was sloppier than the BP/W..
• Experimented with Plastic Fastex buckles in shoulder strap of BP/W harness.. seemed Ok.
• Found that a comfort type of harness with cross chest strap was absolutely essential for my body type (of course SB experts would say I am completely wrong and never needed it or benefitted from it)
• Then went back to jacket BC, rarely carry stage bottle and can still make it work... Using mostly SP Stab jacket....with cummerbund removed and elastic rubber belt replacement and it works fine, supports me floating on the surface MUCH more comfortably on the surface than BP/W, I love not using a crotch strap; the trim underwater may be a little less horizontal than the BP/W, but it works fine. Use the weight integration posckets as storage devices... Using an elastic waist strap allows me to place an emergency DIR type knife sheath.. same as recommended for DIR BP/W harness
• Still using a rubber weightbelt.
• Oh yeah, rigged a second BP/W with an aluminum plate, adjustable shoulder straps, elastic crotch strap, behind the neck bladder constrictors and gave it to my 13 yr old kid... he loves the stability and does not seem to mind the ctroch strap. Better than the two other jacket BC's he tried.

All single tank diving, almost always carrying a back mounted pony bottle.

 

[Nemrod]

I think many of the people who post in these threads including me are not in the bell of the bell curve. On boats and dive sites I have visited in recent years, I see mostly jacket type. I know there are different types of the jacket style but I just lump anything that looks like a jacket into the poodle jacket category. It is my nomenclature, I will use it as I like.

I rarely see another BP/W diver.

Commercial dive boats in the US or just about anywhere in the world will NOT allow diving without a BC of some sort and an alternate second stage (octopus). So when people, including me say they still do not use a BC, well, they are not diving from a CDB (commercial dive boat). Maybe in a walk up quarry or beach dive or from their own boat but they are not diving from a CDB.

For years, it was not allowed to affix non-dumpable weight to a harness, now it is all over the place with weight pockets and trim pockets, WTH! It was "dangerous" and now it is not? In the early 80s I was told I could not use my Seatec wing (then called a back inflate but it was a BP/wing including a Hog rigged harness and plastic plate) at Pro Scuba in Ft Luaderdale because it would not float me upright if unconscious. Well, guess what Sherlock, neither will the vast majority of poodle jackets but a horsecollar will! I do not see any USCG Approval sticker on any of them.

I hate anything on my chest, touching my chest, pushing on my chest. It produces a phobic reaction with me, seriously I hate it. Even a wetsuit that is a bit tight or a sternum strap will make me go near phobic. I DO NOT like anything touching my chest. Thus, I left the horsecollar behind as soon as there were wings circa 78/79 era. Yes, I still use a horsecollar sometimes but usually only for vintage dive functions where a BC is required by the CDB.

The BP/W divers on this board are NOT the average diver. This can be born out by casual observation of divers from Florida to the Caymans to any dive site near you. Yes, you will see BP/W in clusters where groups of techie types frequent but in general use, no. I am usually the only person on a CDB in a true Hog rigged BP/wing.

And the thing is, I freely admit, I am not, NOT normal or representative of the average diver in anyway, past, present or likely future. And most of the BP/W posters on this board are not either, though probably for different reasons than me.

N

 

[SangP]

I don't know if I quality cus I dive with 2 plates not one... sm style but with an sta I can bm too...

 

[boulderjohn]

I rarely see another BP/W diver.

I am going to guess that I had about 200 dives in warm water locations around the world when I saw my first BP/W. It was in Aruba. It aroused quite a bit of attention from the other divers on the boat who had never seen one before. In the years that followed, I saw perhaps 7-8 more on similar dives. Every one of those was being worn by someone I had arranged to dive with through ScubaBoard. Once I started technical diving and started hanging out with those kinds of divers, it became the norm for me. I spend a month in south Florida every year, and when I do I almost only see BP/Ws on technical divers.

The BP/W divers on this board are NOT the average diver.

I agree.

 

[rhwestfall]

Aside from an instructor I have trained through (who is a caver), I'm not sure I have seen a single BP/W on anyone associated with my LDS (shop personnel and clients)...

In contrast, the last charter I did on Lake Erie, there were 14 divers, 12 BP/W and 2 re-breathers (not a single conventional BC)... Then again, it was a charter from a shop that is all cave divers that I happened to have joined for the day. Come to think of it, there were only 2 of us on single tanks...

You say you don't see them, and I say it is because shops aren't carrying them. Look at that cold & hard plate, no padding, no pockets, no apparent adjust-ability, and no pretty colors..... YUCK! How could they be any good? How could they sell? And the shop will feed that reasoning.....

heck, I even experienced a technical shop using those comments to promote a Halcyon "Delux" BP/W over a DSS....

Where there is money to be made.......

 

[Nemrod]

You say you don't see them, and I say it is because shops aren't carrying them. Look at that cold & hard plate, no padding, no pockets, no apparent adjust-ability, and no pretty colors..... YUCK! How could they be any good? How could they sell? And the shop will feed that reasoning.....

......

I do not think it is because shops do not carry them. I think it is because the BP/W are a (perceived as) specialty/tech, non-mainstream product that will never be attractive to the bulk of dive consumers. People look at my BP/W as if an alien space ship had pulled along side and off loaded scuba divers from Pluto.

Most divers today are not water people, most are non-swimmers and have a severe and crippling lack of physical fitness and are not really comfortable in the water without all of the levels of perceived safety they ensconce themselves within. The cushy, soft, fluffy goodness of the poodle jacket suits this softer, safety first clientele. It makes them feel safe(er) at a subconscious level, even if in fact it has no safety advantage whatsoever.

N

 

[randini]

I think I took OW in a jacket style BC. Shortly thereafter I was introduced to rear inflate and never went back and soon thereafter I bought my first BC - a rear inflate USD Alcyone - and still dive it today 15 years later. I guess you could almost consider it a pseudo BPW since the bladder is a wing, and the rest is like a harness. The only remnants of the poodle jacket on it are the plastic "plate" and the velcro cumberbund. Still I checked the last option, poodle jacket to rear inflate.

 

[DazedAndConfuzed]

where is the option of 'a bunch of straps to keep the tank in your back' and 'inflatable balloon' as BC device.

 

[vladimir]

I'll join the old codgers and admit I started in a horse collar with oral inflation and a CO2 cartridge for inflation options. I was 15 at the time. I moved on to a jacket BC, which seemed to be creating a buzz among my dive buddies at the time; it may not have been new, but it seemed like a new innovation to us. Mine was a Central SkinDivers knock-off of a SeaTec design. I have to admit, I learned how to modulate the low-pressure inflator the hard way, with some pretty ragged profiles. I also learned how to flare in the event of a runaway ascent. It's a good thing I was young and resilient.

I stuck with jackets until my advanced nitrox/deco procedures instructor introduced me to a 7' hose, a bungied necklace (I sourced the surgical tubing for him on a NY trip), and, of course...a back-inflate bc? Yes, he sold me a tech-ish BC—a double-diamond something or other—with a dozen D-rings and an inflator hose that was way too long. It was the first time I hated a piece of equipment. Eventually I got a ScubaPro Classic in Phuket and stuck with that brand for a decade or so.

Eventually I drank some of the ScubaBoard cool-aid and got a Deep Sea Supply backplate and wing, which I am happy with and continue to dive, but I would be almost as happy with my ScubaPro Sport, or Classic, or whatever it is. I rarely inflate the damned things anyway. If I can regain my collegiate form, I think I could wear that bc without additional ballast, the way I wear my backplate. At that point I'll switch (or get a lighter backplate).