Building on OW cert

[JXT71]

I wonder to what extent certification is needed or actually a requirement.

It's needed when someone else is responsible for you, or liable for your actions.

Right now, if I wanted to drive to the beach, put on my scuba gear and march into the water by myself, no one is going to stop me. I can go dive to 200ft, run my tank dry and die there. Since its all my gear and I have an OW cert on record claiming I know better than to do that, no one else is held responsible.
Change the setting to a dive op that's renting out equipment to you and taking you down to 100ft. Rather than go over all the associated hazards of that, they can just ask to see your AOW cert issued by a recognized agency that claims you know it already. And to verify that you haven't forgotten the skills? A simple supervised check-out dive.

I can understand how some certs seem pointless. UW Navigation seems pointless if you're only ever in 80ft vis with a DM nearby. Wreck Diver seems pointless if you've only faced an open hull, or maybe a simple deck layout. Just remember that not all dive locations and conditions are the same - and classes can provide a structured and supervised environment to help introduce you to more challenging dives.
Also, a dive op that only wants an AOW for a "deep cave dive"? That raises an eyebrow... I suppose by rec logic, they'd only have to take you down to 61ft and swim under a rock outcropping to call it a deep cave dive.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I just saw this thread. I haven't read all the posts.

If you spent any time on your knees, if they didn't teach you to be minimally weighted (where you can sit at a safety stop trim, empty BCD/dry suit with a cylinder close to 500 psi), go take GUE fundies or UTD Extreme Makeover.

It will be money well spent. So much that @sigxbill and I will reimburse you if you can honestly say you didn't improve from those classes.

 

[TMHeimer]

I just saw this thread. I haven't read all the posts.

If you spent any time on your knees, if they didn't teach you to be minimally weighted (where you can sit at a safety stop trim, empty BCD/dry suit with a cylinder close to 500 psi), go take GUE fundies or UTD Extreme Makeover.

It will be money well spent. So much that @sigxbill and I will reimburse you if you can honestly say you didn't improve from those classes.

I have no experience with GUE or UTD but from what I read they are a good idea. But learning on your knees doesn't mean you need them IMHO. Probably most of our (older?) LDS' instructors learned on their knees. Not at all saying that doing those very few appropriate skills kneeling is the best idea.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I have no experience with GUE or UTD but from what I read they are a good idea. But learning on your knees doesn't mean you need them IMHO. Probably most of our (older?) LDS' instructors learned on their knees. Not at all saying that doing those very few appropriate skills kneeling is the best idea.

I learned on my knees, I started teaching on the knees, but I’ve stopped. Placing students on the knees requires overweighting them, and having that additional gas expanding/shrinking as they change depth results in an additional change in buoyancy (using the term with the meaning of force) makes it that much harder for new divers to control their depth.

Properly weighting them, getting them comfortable in the water, are key to them doing skills off the bottom and trim.

Ironically, doing things this way results in less time required as they are not flopping around on their knees.

 

[TMHeimer]

I learned on my knees, I started teaching on the knees, but I’ve stopped. Placing students on the knees requires overweighting them, and having that additional gas expanding/shrinking as they change depth results in an additional change in buoyancy (using the term with the meaning of force) makes it that much harder for new divers to control their depth.

Properly weighting them, getting them comfortable in the water, are key to them doing skills off the bottom and trim.

Ironically, doing things this way results in less time required as they are not flopping around on their knees.

Yes I agree with all that. Just saying that if you learned on your knees it doesn't at all mean that you should take GUE or UTD to correct any shortcomings you may have developed. If you dive regularly after OW you probably will have things (buoyancy, trim, etc.) in good order after a very few dives. We did.
This is an old discussion, where in the past I have mentioned that there are very few of the 24 skills that are appropriate for doing in the water column--mask skills, reg. retrieval, doff & don, air share. I think it's a great idea to teach these few neutrally, as it means new divers are starting out with and advantage over those learning on their knees. Especially those who weren't comfortable in water to begin with.
Your post said "If you spent any time on your knees......GUE, UTD". Most of us who dived regularly after kneeling probably easily sorted everything out rather quickly. In general, my diving isn't a whole lot different now than it was after I had maybe 10 dives or so.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

If you dive regularly after OW you probably will have things (buoyancy, trim, etc.) in good order after a very few dives. We did.

Or you ingrain bad habits. I made it to 380 dives before I took fundies. Big mistake. Had to work hard to break bad habits. Yes, excellent buoyancy courses can be taken from excellent instructors across many agencies. But the consistency isn't there, hence my recommendation. In my signature, everyone can see that I am not an instructor for either agency, so this isn't self serving, but rather recommending what I feel is best for divers.

 

[TMHeimer]

Or you ingrain bad habits. I made it to 380 dives before I took fundies. Big mistake. Had to work hard to break bad habits. Yes, excellent buoyancy courses can be taken from excellent instructors across many agencies. But the consistency isn't there, hence my recommendation. In my signature, everyone can see that I am not an instructor for either agency, so this isn't self serving, but rather recommending what I feel is best for divers.

Good point. Out of curiosity, what were your bad habits (if I may ask)?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Good point. Out of curiosity, what were your bad habits (if I may ask)?

Primarily bad trim, overweighted, crappy depth control (overweighting was the cause), bad body positioning, breaking at the waste, plowing through the water.

Fundies changed my world. I’ll never be a DIR diver, but I’m grateful for the skill improvement I acquired in that course. Changed how I teach, that’s for sure.

 

[TMHeimer]

Primarily bad trim, overweighted, crappy depth control (overweighting was the cause), bad body positioning, breaking at the waste, plowing through the water.

Fundies changed my world. I’ll never be a DIR diver, but I’m grateful for the skill improvement I acquired in that course. Changed how I teach, that’s for sure.

Thanks. You know, it's interesting that I don't really recall whether we did a weight check on our checkout dives 13 years ago, but I don't think so. I recall I was up and down quite a bit the first dive and gradually improved on dives 2-4. Then I got my own stuff. It was so long ago I actually don't remember doing a weight check then either. Maybe I was just lucky in that what I chose to wear with my 7 mil farmer john wetsuit was fairly close to correct, as my buoyancy was good in a very short time. I did the first real weight check that I actually remember a year later during a PPB course in Florida. The instructor said I wore way too much weight, but I said I needed that much to descend (I can't recall the amount as the course was in fresh water, which I rarely dive, but for salt water it was in the 40 pound range). When we did a weight check he was amazed that I was pretty close to right on (by luck...?).
I've rarely done a weight check since then as my equipment and body weight really hasn't changed. Except for a new weight suit. I had been down to 37 pounds with the old piece of junk and had to go back to the current 42 pounds.
All the OW courses I assisted on we did weight checks. It would be nice that even if one is not done, at least you were told how to do one--I do believe it is in the PADI OW manual but not sure.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Thanks. You know, it's interesting that I don't really recall whether we did a weight check on our checkout dives 13 years ago, but I don't think so. I recall I was up and down quite a bit the first dive and gradually improved on dives 2-4. Then I got my own stuff. It was so long ago I actually don't remember doing a weight check then either. Maybe I was just lucky in that what I chose to wear with my 7 mil farmer john wetsuit was fairly close to correct, as my buoyancy was good in a very short time. I did the first real weight check that I actually remember a year later during a PPB course in Florida. The instructor said I wore way too much weight, but I said I needed that much to descend (I can't recall the amount as the course was in fresh water, which I rarely dive, but for salt water it was in the 40 pound range). When we did a weight check he was amazed that I was pretty close to right on (by luck...?).
I've rarely done a weight check since then as my equipment and body weight really hasn't changed. Except for a new weight suit. I had been down to 37 pounds with the old piece of junk and had to go back to the current 42 pounds.
All the OW courses I assisted on we did weight checks. It would be nice that even if one is not done, at least you were told how to do one--I do believe it is in the PADI OW manual but not sure.

I don't think the weight check method in the mainstream agencies where I have taught were good/accurate. This is what I do: How I weight students in open water courses. Feel free to critique. I'm only interested in getting better.