Deep Air Training?

[Dark Wolf]

Indeed! My youngest sister was actually born in a cab. My dear old mother loves telling that story!

I'll bet she does!!

 

[texdiveguy]

I think an argument could be made that 10 dives to 150-180 fsw on air would be a prudent thing for anyone planning on diving regularly in the 100-120 fsw range. If you don't dive where a down draft or malfunction could take you to those depths then perhaps it isn't useful otherwise I think a good argument can be made.

I have read your complete post....not exactly sure what you are asking....but in regards to this part I cut out above---- IMO... if you are talking about recreational divers whom freq. do dives in the 100-120 fsw range needing to go thru deep air training at 150-180fsw.....for what reason? Any training at those depths will require advanced training beyond the scope of recreational divers. 100 to 120 in depth is not that deep with regards to over time and progressive experience/dives learning to deal with narcosis. I have seen little sign of being narced in divers at those depths. Of all my dives i only know of one time having been a little narced.

If a diver make slow descents and stays within NDL of 130fsw most recreational divers will not get narced to a degree that will hinder their ability to function....the more you do dives to those depths the more your body will acclemate. Being narced is a fickle situation at best---many variables.

 

[gcbryan]

The initial post was 2 diver's diving with the appropriate gas for the planned bottom. The bottom changes because "stuff" happens. Now you have to deal with it.

You either deal with it for the first time with no prior experience or you deal with it having had some prior experience.

Threads get off topic naturally of course but the point of the thread wasn't about correct technique for dealing with down drafts or incorrectly weighted divers.

As I understand it the thrust of the responses so far seems to be to deny that "stuff" happens and to exaggerate the admittedly negative effects of narcosis.

My use of the word training in my mind also includes self training as was mentioned by an earlier poster which I have personally done.

This isn't about me. I'm interested more in why many things that are less likely to happen are trained for and this particular possible event isn't. I'm also interested in why some who have never done this type of training are so sure that it isn't a good idea? Or why those who have gone to a certain depth once are sure it isn't a good idea just based on one experience?

Thinking outside the box would seem to be what's missing here. Deal with some narcosis under more controlled circumstances in case you ever need to under less controlled circumstances not because deep air is a great goal is my point here.

 

[texdiveguy]

gcb... I think I understand what you are implying.....the fact is that if you are staying within recreational NDL diving and plan your dive and follow your plan...you should not find yourself/s at 180ft.. Yep stuff does happen....but truely just because you have been to 150-180 ft. on air does and will not make you better prepared for that very rare incident. If you are buddy diving to 120 and you or your buddy plunges to 180ft.,,,,you are going to have to make the best of it...if your buddy drops that far and you follow than that may not be a good thing ....remember you must watch out for yourself first. We all read and study and train to avoid DCI...but most of us don't feel the need to experience a hit so we can better handle it if we ever find ourselves in that situation. IMO

 

[grazie42]

As I understand it the thrust of the responses so far seems to be to deny that "stuff" happens and to exaggerate the admittedly negative effects of narcosis.

My use of the word training in my mind also includes self training as was mentioned by an earlier poster which I have personally done.

Thinking outside the box would seem to be what's missing here. Deal with some narcosis under more controlled circumstances in case you ever need to under less controlled circumstances not because deep air is a great goal is my point here.

I think the thrust of the responses are that **** happens and that you can´t prepare for/train/prevent all **** that can happen, so focus on the stuff that maximizes the utility of the limited resources you have for prevention, most people seem to think that narcosis isn´t one of those things.

I´ve seen studies quoted in various forums that disprove the idea that adaption to narcosis is possible. Since the only "benefit" you get from experiencing narcosis is that it´s "not good"(some don´t even get that), do one or a few dives and then focus on NOT doing it. There is no "training" taking place, you don´t get better at handling narcosis, at best you get better at performing some limited skillset while impaired but most would argue that it´s more effective to practice those skills shallow so you get the benefit of clear-headed evaluation of your performance and multiple repetitions.

As the nature of the narcosis you experience is as much about the "state of mind" of the diver as anything else (in my limited experience), unless you can convince yourself that your buddy really is plummeting to the depths and that you´re both on an al80. I have a hard time seeing how any "training" is going to help you deal with those kinds of issues, even if I were to disregard my opinion that adaption to narcosis is impossible...

ymmv

 

[gcbryan]

I think the thrust of the responses are that **** happens and that you can´t prepare for/train/prevent all **** that can happen, so focus on the stuff that maximizes the utility of the limited resources you have for prevention, most people seem to think that narcosis isn´t one of those things.

.......

As the nature of the narcosis you experience is as much about the "state of mind" of the diver as anything else (in my limited experience), unless you can convince yourself that your buddy really is plummeting to the depths and that you´re both on an al80. I have a hard time seeing how any "training" is going to help you deal with those kinds of issues, even if I were to disregard my opinion that adaption to narcosis is impossible...

ymmv

I disagree with your conclusions but you have stated that point of view well.

As an aside, however, I have no idea what you are trying to say in your last paragraph ...unless you can convince yourself that your buddy really is plummeting to the depths and that you´re both on an al80.

If I can convince myself of that then what (not that I would be on an Al80)?

 

[grazie42]

I disagree with your conclusions but you have stated that point of view well.

As an aside, however, I have no idea what you are trying to say in your last paragraph ...unless you can convince yourself that your buddy really is plummeting to the depths and that you´re both on an al80.

If I can convince myself of that then what (not that I would be on an Al80)?

What I am trying to say is:
-In the scenario discussed I got the impression that it was "a single tank dive gone wrong". I´d therefore assume that not only would going to 180ft give you a fair dose of narcosis, but you´d also run a big risk of going OOA before surfacing and that a fair amount of psychological stress (your friend isn´t responsive uw) would be involved.

If you can´t induce that "psychological stress" in your "training", will that training really be of much use when it does happen? As my limited experience tells me that my "state of mind" and how I deal with the different stimuli effect my narcosis as much or more than the depth/gas equation...

 

[gcbryan]

What I am trying to say is:
-In the scenario discussed I got the impression that it was "a single tank dive gone wrong". I´d therefore assume that not only would going to 180ft give you a fair dose of narcosis, but you´d also run a big risk of going OOA before surfacing and that a fair amount of psychological stress (your friend isn´t responsive uw) would be involved.

If you can´t induce that "psychological stress" in your "training", will that training really be of much use when it does happen? As my limited experience tells me that my "state of mind" and how I deal with the different stimuli effect my narcosis as much or more than the depth/gas equation...

I agree somewhat. Deep air involves narcosis (a given), anxiety of what will happen if you haven't done it before (practice will help here) and the adrenaline that the real event produces (can't practice for this). Reducing the anxiety component through some actual experience I believe is helpful. The OOA situation is another matter. If you don't have enough air to be at 180 fsw or to help your buddy then you don't do it. Two divers with steel 120's and 30 cu ft ponies would have some options.

 

[waterpirate]

Deep air makes you dive stupid.
Drinking makes you drive stupid.
Anyone who drives stupid with any frequency can tell you that being "used to it " does not insulate you from being stupid.
Eric

 

[The Chairman]

This isn't about me. I'm interested more in why many things that are less likely to happen are trained for and this particular possible event isn't.

Such as? You have yet to show one skill taught in OW that is not needed and yet we see no need to dive deep to rescue a buddy.

I'm also interested in why some who have never done this type of training are so sure that it isn't a good idea?

I haven't jumped off a cliff or shot myself in the foot either. Somehow, I can DEDUCE that this is bad for you without putting myself in danger.

Or why those who have gone to a certain depth once are sure it isn't a good idea just based on one experience?

You surely don't know my diiving experience and I am not going to participate in a "who's done it deepest" discussion.

Thinking outside the box would seem to be what's missing here.

No, this has nothing to do with thinking "outside the box" and everything to do with denial of the nascent dangers.