Ditching the poodle jacket

[pac]

John, I wanted to try to add something constructive to this thread and help you get some hard info on the questions from your opening post.

I had no previous experience with BP/W, but did quite a bit of research and also spent time reading the existing threads on SB. This year I bought Eric Sedletzky's Freedom Plate directly from him. I am just a vacation diver with only 50+ dives, and have no affiliation with him.

Pre-sale he took the time to provide detailed answers to all my questions via SB msg. Quick ship & well packed. Post-sale he has continued to answer questions and make suggestions. Very easy guy to deal with anytime and quick to respond.

This month I have done 6 ocean dives with the Freedom Plate, along with an Oxycheq Mach V extreme wing and HOG harness bought via Scubatoys. I used both alum and steel 80s. Right away, I could see the potential with the BP/W set-up and understand why many here rave about this type of gear. I love the combination I ended up with after looking at many of the options in the market.

Hardcore tech divers who have held my plate have been impressed with the quality and simplicity of the design. I understand that Eric's Freedom Plate is now available through Scubatoys, so it's an easy purchase. I strongly recommend this option to anyone considering a BP/W, no matter what your experience level.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[Deep South Divers]

If you are doing dives below 30 meters in a relatively heavy wetsuit, you may NOT want to use a steel plate and STA to meet your ballast needs. At those depths, the wetsuit will have lost much of its buoyancy, and if you have all your ballast built into your rig, you have no weight to ditch in the event of a wing failure. In a situation like that, you may want to split your ballast, so you have some on your back (steel tank, maybe steel plate) and the rest on a belt or in a weight harness that you can ditch if you have to.

NEVER ditch weight at depth!

Think about this... If you were in the above scenario and ditched weight at depth to get neutral enough to swim up, by the time you hit 20 feet, you'd be so positively bouyant that there's no way you'd be able to slow your ascent. Especially because you were diving below 30 meters, this is a classic way to really get hurt.

You should NEVER dive a rig that you can't swim up in a catastrophic wing failure. Yeah, you could use a lift bag or your drysuit as backup flotation, but it's a really poor plan and will dramatically complicate an existing problem (the wing failure). It also offers no redundancy if your problem is an OOG situation and you CAN'T inflate a lift bag or drysuit.

With so many different pieces of dive gear being neutral or even bouyant in the water, there's simply no reason to be diving a rig that you can't swim up.

 

[InTheDrink]

Given your preferences, and the statements in your original post, are you set on a BP/W, or are you looking at back-inflate BCs? Your request for a right shoulder dump and padding would be much easier to fulfill with a back-inflate BC, like a SeaQuest Balance. Backplate systems tend to be stripped down to the core, functional components, and eschew padding and additional dumps, because they aren't felt to be necessary. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't have them if you want them, even if I think you would find you don't need them.

Very good point. I actually have borrowed my buddy's Oceanic BC (back inflate). It has more cushioning than a persian carpet. I haven't tried it yet but it will inform my decision.

That said, I like the general concept of minimalism. I started diving with long hose recently and love that so my natural tendency is to explore some of the other kit used by divers typically using that configuration, namely BP/W. I won't lie and pretend that there isn't an element of vanity too, which at least I'm big enough to admit My buddy has also started some tech and rebreather training and it is possible that I might lean in these directions also (mainly time permitting) so this further pushes me into looking into 'tech' gear, for want of a better term.

The question is whether I'm willing to risk the loss of comfort in buying a rig that I haven't tried in really life. Answer is: probably yes. I suspect that if ballast requirements are spread (as they appear to be in this kind of BP/W setup) then the back pain probably won't be a problem. I suspect it was wearing a weight belt only for ballast and probably being overweighted (couple years back) that was most likely the culprit. Of course, this is also me talking myself into something

If you are doing dives below 30 meters in a relatively heavy wetsuit, you may NOT want to use a steel plate and STA to meet your ballast needs. At those depths, the wetsuit will have lost much of its buoyancy, and if you have all your ballast built into your rig, you have no weight to ditch in the event of a wing failure. In a situation like that, you may want to split your ballast, so you have some on your back (steel tank, maybe steel plate) and the rest on a belt or in a weight harness that you can ditch if you have to. Either that, or carry some type of auxiliary buoyancy (lift bag) or use a dry suit.

Hmmm, interesting. I've always liked the idea of splitting ballast between me and the rig. For example, trying to do anything with your rig off if all your weight is on the rig essentially leaves you only one hand to do anything and puts you inverted (as your other hand holds on to the rig to keep you from going polaris). For this reason the Oxycheq (no STA required) and Freedom plate (not as heavy as normal SS but not as light as AL) sounds appealing. I'm still a little concerned however with the additional weight as I travel by plane to quite a lot of sites.

Anyway, your original list -- plate, wing, harness, weight system -- is pretty complete except for some kind of pockets for small items. Many BP owners put the pockets on their exposure protection, because the harness gets crowded and fussy if you try to put weights and pockets on it.

Good spot. I'm going to get some of these, particulary ones that can be attached to exposure protection. I'm probably going to start with one and then get another if required.

Thanks for your help!

John

 

[InTheDrink]

A correctly-placed bottom dump should be on the LEFT side. That way, you can control all of your inflate/deflate needs with your left hand alone. This leaves your right hand to handle a scooter, light, tool, OOG buddy, or whatever. If your power inflator/dump was on the left and the bottom dump on the right, you'd have to switch out hands all the time, depending on your attitude in the water.

Good point. Although I've never felt the effect of this whilst diving.
Descending from surface, pull right shoulder dump.
Descending add gas via left hand inflator.
All other dumping happens from bottom right dump (not shoulder and not inflator)
Unless profile is seriously saw tooth no other inflation done so there isn't really a left hand then right hand thing going on. But I guess there are situations where managing inflate/deflate with one hand could well be necessary.

InTheDrink, are you diving wet or dry? Salt or fresh? What sort of steel tank are you usually diving with?

...But depending on your dive style and gear, an aluminum plate may better serve you. What's your situation?

I dive wet at the moment, salt, and with a 10L or occasionally 12L steel tank.

I like the idea of an SS plate because it's heavy. I like the idea of an AL one cos it's lighter (and I fly a fair bit to my dives).

When it comes to STAs, I'm a big fan of the Koplin hourglass-shaped "light" STA. Very secure, and gives me the room I need between my head and the tank valve, without raising my dive profile too much. (STA-less wings keep the tank too close to my head and are sloppy when changing tanks.) Convertible STAs (the ones that allow you to add 6 lbs of lead) aren't a very good design, IMHO... I don't like the sloppy feeling of the way that the tank sits in there when you've got the weight in. It also usually requires some cam band adjustment when putting the weight in. Some convertible STAs I've seen have higher "sides," but then the tank is waaaay off of my back, and affects my trim poorly - especially when using a steel tank (tends to "turtle" me - I think that weighted STAs are more appropriate for aluminum tanks, and even then I'm not too much of a fan).

I'm looking at a wing that doesn't require an STA - can you elaborate on what part is sloppy when changing tanks?

One more opinion - I would hold off on weight pockets and plan on using the system's weight to pretty much nail your weighting, no additional lead necessary. Remember, you can always simply add a couple of pounds right onto the harness if you need it. The only thing that weight pockets do for you is make weight ditchable, which you may find out you don't need after diving this system.

Right-o, I'll bear that in mind. How does one 'add a couple of pounds right onto the harness' by the way? What kind of weight and where and how does it sit?

Thanks!
John

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

NEVER ditch weight at depth!

Think about this... If you were in the above scenario and ditched weight at depth to get neutral enough to swim up, by the time you hit 20 feet, you'd be so positively bouyant that there's no way you'd be able to slow your ascent. Especially because you were diving below 30 meters, this is a classic way to really get hurt.

You should NEVER dive a rig that you can't swim up in a catastrophic wing failure. Yeah, you could use a lift bag or your drysuit as backup flotation, but it's a really poor plan and will dramatically complicate an existing problem (the wing failure). It also offers no redundancy if your problem is an OOG situation and you CAN'T inflate a lift bag or drysuit.

With so many different pieces of dive gear being neutral or even bouyant in the water, there's simply no reason to be diving a rig that you can't swim up.

I will bite, given you are diving a big thick wetsuit, suffer a catastrophic wing failure at 90' or OOG, what is you plan to swim up 20# of dead weight?

 

[TSandM]

John, I've traveled a lot of places with a 5 lb SS plate, and it wasn't a problem. But if you're going a lot of places on very small planes where the weight restrictions are tighter, buying an aluminum or Kydex plate, and then adding weight pouches on the cambands to recapture the total ballast, works fine. You can always ADD weight to a plate system (in a lot of ways) but you can't make a steel plate any lighter

With respect to SeaJay's statement about never ditching weight at depth -- I agree with him in concept. Deep diving in heavy wetsuits is really problematic in this respect, because the total buoyancy you can lose is so great. It is preferable to put together a combination of equipment that permits ascending with any single major failure, and for deep diving, a dry suit gives you some backup buoyancy and allows control of an ascent.

But you're better bent than drowned, and if you can't or won't reorder your gear to permit an ascent under any circumstances, you're better off with ditchable weight than pinned to the bottom. JMHO.

 

[Deep South Divers]

Good point. Although I've never felt the effect of this whilst diving.

That makes a lot of sense if your current diving is done with both hands free - that is, if you're diving without a scooter, large camera, tools, lights, etc. Since you seem to be considering getting into more advanced forms of diving that may include these things (maybe even stages as well), then you may want to consider the efficiency of being able to control all three actions (inflate, deflate, deflate with bottom dump) with one hand.

I dive wet at the moment, salt, and with a 10L or occasionally 12L steel tank.

Well, adding a stainless steel backplate to your rig will add five or six pounds to the weight of your rig... So it's great to be able to take that amount of lead off of your belt (or pockets) and still be correctly weighted. It WILL change your trim a bit, though, by bringing the weight off of your midsection and placing it on your back. I generally dive with a stainless plate when I use aluminum (comparatively bouyant) tanks and an aluminum plate when I use steel (comparatively negative) tanks. If I don't, I find that my rig is too "back heavy" and will "turtle" me if I turn sideways. The problem is much worse when diving doubles than it is with a single.

I've also found that steel tanks and salt water don't mix very well. Sure, they can be used, and I'm sure I'll get flamed for it, but the bottom line is that steel tanks are coated (either hot or cold galvanized, paint, epoxy, etc.) to prevent rust. Since all tank coatings scratch, I find that when I use steel tanks, my backplates, STAs, wings, boats, and the backs of my trucks all slowly turn a rusty brown because of some scratch somewhere on one of the tanks. For the same reason that I only use aluminum trailers for my boats, I only use aluminum tanks when I dive saltwater.

I like the idea of an SS plate because it's heavy. I like the idea of an AL one cos it's lighter (and I fly a fair bit to my dives).

Yeah, especially if you're flying (and a 5 pound difference can be a lot), I'd recommend an aluminum plate. My favorites are probably the Halcyons, because of their high quality mil-spec anodizing. Worth the price.

Your 10L and 12L tanks are already heavy enough (compared to aluminum tanks) and should trim you out nicely. This also solves the "ditchable weighting" dilemma... With an aluminum plate, you'll have an additional 5 pounds or so on your belt/weight pockets - which will be ditchable (or not) - so that dilemma is solved.

I'm looking at a wing that doesn't require an STA - can you elaborate on what part is sloppy when changing tanks?

Yeah - if you talk to the manufacturers of these STA-less wings, they'll point out that their wings will work either with or without a STA... So whether you choose to use one or not, you're covered... So it's really a nonissue, and you can try it out for yourself.

...But there's two things that I see a STA doing for you:

1. It raises the tank about 20mm off of your back. This is usually a welcome relief with regards to how close your first stage is to the back of your head. Diving without a STA, I find, whacks me in the back of the head every time I swim horizontally.

2. When changing out tanks on a STA-less wing, releasing the pressure on the cam bands (to remove the tank) also releases all of the forces that hold the wing to the plate. Basically, the entire system can then come apart, and it's a bit sloppy to handle and get everything back together. Adding a STA solves this issue - now, the STA, wing, and backplate are all one unit, and it's easy to remove and replace a tank for your next dive.

I really like the Koplin hourglass-shaped "light" STAs that Oxycheq offers. Very smooth, nicely finished, and not-too-high and not-too-low. They also reduce scratch marks on my tanks from metal-to-metal contact. You might find this a big advantage when it comes to steel tanks, since that's one scratch on your tanks that is reduced.

As a side note, there are several cam band designs on the market - the best I've found anywhere are these: Stainless Steel Cam Latch Tank Strap reviews and discounts, Scubamax Since they come completely apart when released, they give the advantage of being able to remove and replace tanks while your new backplate and wing is laying down on it's face, rather than having to stand the system up and slide everything down onto a new tank. This is a huge advantage on a rocking boat. I tuck mine so that the buckle is all the way to the right as far as possible, thus protecting the business end of the buckle for streamlining. Scubapro's got a similar system (they were actually the original designers of this strap), but has been altered today to be not quite as good (with the Scubapro ones, the velcro is on the outside, where it shouldn't be).

Right-o, I'll bear that in mind. How does one 'add a couple of pounds right onto the harness' by the way? What kind of weight and where and how does it sit?

Thanks!
John

I like Sea Pearls weights - no burrs, and smooth and very rounded. You simply thread them onto the "belt" part of the backplate and wing harness and secure with either a flip in the webbing or a triglide ("weight keeper").

That said, in your case and with the traveling that you're planning on doing, I'd recommend a set of weight pockets instead - XS Scuba and Dive Rite both make great pockets, and Halcyon makes ACB pockets that include a quick release handle.

This way, you can get weights at the dive shop once you've arrived at your destination, put them in the pockets, and you're good to go. Meanwhile, you've got a very solid rig that's respectably light for travel.

 

[InTheDrink]

John, I've traveled a lot of places with a 5 lb SS plate, and it wasn't a problem. But if you're going a lot of places on very small planes where the weight restrictions are tighter, buying an aluminum or Kydex plate, and then adding weight pouches on the cambands to recapture the total ballast, works fine. You can always ADD weight to a plate system (in a lot of ways) but you can't make a steel plate any lighter

Ok good to know. 5lb/2kg isn't that big a deal. Some of the planes I catch are tiny, but my buddy carries at least twice the amount of luggage and weight as I so he can leave one of the cameras or whatever at home. For normal planes it's really just that the weight restrictions are so tight/costly these days.

On a slightly amusing note, I got back from diving in Tanzania earlier this month. I was carrying my luggage plus a bag of my buddy's. He was going elsewhere, I was going home. At the desk in Dar, it turns out I'm 25.5kg over. :-(. The guy presents me with the 'menu' of overweight costs. $70 USD. Per kilo. Gulp. $1,785 extra. I did the usual arched eyebrows thing. He said 'Would you be interesting in doing a deal with me' to which I replied yes. He asked how much I would give him to put the bags on. I said 50,000 ($30). He did the usual face and said 'please don't insult me' so we settled on 150,000 ($90) + plus an upgrade to business . Iknow it's corruption and I know it's wrong but sipping champagne with slightly shy of an additional $2,000 in my pocket I couldn't help but allow myself a little smile of satisfaction

With respect to SeaJay's statement about never ditching weight at depth -- I agree with him in concept. Deep diving in heavy wetsuits is really problematic in this respect, because the total buoyancy you can lose is so great. It is preferable to put together a combination of equipment that permits ascending with any single major failure, and for deep diving, a dry suit gives you some backup buoyancy and allows control of an ascent.

But you're better bent than drowned, and if you can't or won't reorder your gear to permit an ascent under any circumstances, you're better off with ditchable weight than pinned to the bottom. JMHO.

Agree, you're better off not drowning. On my trip in Cocos last November I decided on one dive to leave my small pocket light behind. During the dive I felt really quite light and struggled a little to stay down on the safety stop. I really couldn't believe that a small torch could affect buoyancy so much!!! Well, when I got back in the boat I found out that it didn't as one of the other divers handed me a weight pocket that had fallen out from my integrated weight system. It was funny and before someone says I was overweighted, well yes, clearly, although I was wearing 4kg (10lbs) in total.

And it did rub in one other aspect that is even if you lose some of your weight, you can probably control your ascent, especially igf there's a buddy even vaguely near you. You can hang on to them. Clearly it depends how much weight you're talking about losing but making an absolute statement about *never* ditching weight at depth doesn't make much sense to me. I think it would be more accurate saying you should 'rarely' ditch weight unless the situation really dictates...

Thanks,
John!

 

[Deep South Divers]

I will bite, given you are diving a big thick wetsuit, suffer a catastrophic wing failure at 90' or OOG, what is you plan to swim up 20# of dead weight?

Well, you should be neutral to begin with, right? So while there may be a 20# difference in wetsuit bouyancy between the surface and the deep, it certainly doesn't mean that you'll be 20#s negative when you suffer the failure.

Besides, if you're diving a suit that loses 20#s of bouyancy with depth, then you need to either be diving dry or get a better suit. There's just no reason for that much of a change.

Regardless, not one agency in the world recommends ditching weight at depth. With regards to ditching weight, they ALL specify that it should only happen at the surface, if at all.

A better plan is to dive with a balanced rig in the first place, that you can swim up at any point... That is, you've "already ditched your weight." You're simply not diving with it in the first place.

 

[InTheDrink]

That makes a lot of sense if your current diving is done with both hands free - that is, if you're diving without a scooter, large camera, tools, lights, etc. Since you seem to be considering getting into more advanced forms of diving that may include these things (maybe even stages as well), then you may want to consider the efficiency of being able to control all three actions (inflate, deflate, deflate with bottom dump) with one hand.



Well, adding a stainless steel backplate to your rig will add five or six pounds to the weight of your rig... So it's great to be able to take that amount of lead off of your belt (or pockets) and still be correctly weighted. It WILL change your trim a bit, though, by bringing the weight off of your midsection and placing it on your back. I generally dive with a stainless plate when I use aluminum (comparatively bouyant) tanks and an aluminum plate when I use steel (comparatively negative) tanks. If I don't, I find that my rig is too "back heavy" and will "turtle" me if I turn sideways. The problem is much worse when diving doubles than it is with a single.

I've also found that steel tanks and salt water don't mix very well. Sure, they can be used, and I'm sure I'll get flamed for it, but the bottom line is that steel tanks are coated (either hot or cold galvanized, paint, epoxy, etc.) to prevent rust. Since all tank coatings scratch, I find that when I use steel tanks, my backplates, STAs, wings, boats, and the backs of my trucks all slowly turn a rusty brown because of some scratch somewhere on one of the tanks. For the same reason that I only use aluminum trailers for my boats, I only use aluminum tanks when I dive saltwater.



Yeah, especially if you're flying (and a 5 pound difference can be a lot), I'd recommend an aluminum plate. My favorites are probably the Halcyons, because of their high quality mil-spec anodizing. Worth the price.

Your 10L and 12L tanks are already heavy enough (compared to aluminum tanks) and should trim you out nicely. This also solves the "ditchable weighting" dilemma... With an aluminum plate, you'll have an additional 5 pounds or so on your belt/weight pockets - which will be ditchable (or not) - so that dilemma is solved.



Yeah - if you talk to the manufacturers of these STA-less wings, they'll point out that their wings will work either with or without a STA... So whether you choose to use one or not, you're covered... So it's really a nonissue, and you can try it out for yourself.

...But there's two things that I see a STA doing for you:

1. It raises the tank about 20mm off of your back. This is usually a welcome relief with regards to how close your first stage is to the back of your head. Diving without a STA, I find, whacks me in the back of the head every time I swim horizontally.

2. When changing out tanks on a STA-less wing, releasing the pressure on the cam bands (to remove the tank) also releases all of the forces that hold the wing to the plate. Basically, the entire system can then come apart, and it's a bit sloppy to handle and get everything back together. Adding a STA solves this issue - now, the STA, wing, and backplate are all one unit, and it's easy to remove and replace a tank for your next dive.

As a side note, there are several cam band designs on the market - the best I've found anywhere are these: Stainless Steel Cam Latch Tank Strap reviews and discounts, Scubamax Since they come completely apart when released, they give the advantage of being able to remove and replace tanks while your new backplate and wing is laying down on it's face, rather than having to stand the system up and slide everything down onto a new tank. This is a huge advantage on a rocking boat. Scubapro's got a similar system (they were actually the original designers of this strap), but has been altered today to be not quite as good (with the Scubapro ones, the velcro is on the outside, where it shouldn't be).



I like Sea Pearls weights - no burrs, and smooth and very rounded. You simply thread them onto the "belt" part of the backplate and wing harness and secure with either a flip in the webbing or a triglide ("weight keeper").

That said, in your case and with the traveling that you're planning on doing, I'd recommend a set of weight pockets instead - XS Scuba and Dive Rite both make great pockets, and Halcyon makes ACB pockets that include a quick release handle.

This way, you can get weights at the dive shop once you've arrived at your destination, put them in the pockets, and you're good to go. Meanwhile, you've got a very solid rig that's respectably light for travel.

Hmm don't know where to start except thanks for your comprehensive reply - much appreciated. The STA advice in particular is of use as I do get ticked off banging my head on my first stage (altho this is because of my BC riding up I think plus wearing my tank high to compensate for the weight of my fins (jets) which are a little too negative for my liking (although I love them otherwise more than life itself).

Anyhow, I'll look to get one.

Got to put kids to bed now but back soon. Thanks again for your insight.

J