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Man rescued from submerged car sues dive team.

Discussion in 'Ideas and Stories' started by james croft, Mar 11, 2014.

  1. tridacna

    tridacna ScubaBoard Supporter ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 2,500 - 4,999
    Location: New Jersey
    I'm sorry. Is this the 5 or the 10 pound argument?
    doctormike likes this.
  2. KevWind

    KevWind Regular of the Pub

    # of Dives: I just don't log dives
    Holy cow you too? Didn't actually bother to read this thread hey? We have already revealed this type of categorical statement about that particular interview to be a falsehood. At least bother to check your source and understand what was actually said. Carlson made an unsubstantiated accusation about something she claims the lawyer said he believed, and cut him off before he could respond.

    Why don't we try to introduce some integrity of facts instead of :angrymob: He could be undocumented but that fact is not possible to determine from that interview.

    BTW Mike was being facetious I'm guessing he has a very well developed sense of ironic humor. I'm speculating we would get along famously on a dive trip if we agreed to disagree on politics.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
    Mike likes this.
  3. ReefGuy

    ReefGuy Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Punta Gorda, Fl.
    I did not misunderstand you. And you still misunderstand me. Your original post was still incorrect start to finish, the whole last part of my thread was pointing out what was wrong with each step you imagined. In the context above, if the car had been in the water any more than :30 or so, I would NOT enter the car. I would tap and hope to hear something, but, barring some indication of life, I'm not going to break the windows and enter the vehicle. If I do hear something, I'm in the car. Otherwise, it's a crime scene.

    Your initial post glibly summed up a difficult operation, with full 20/20 hindsight, and got it almost entirely wrong. Insultingly wrong, because of the smug ass overtone of your post.

    Look, I'd never tell someone that cave diving is: Find a hole in the bottom, tie off, keep the line tight and don't silt. Explore and have fun. Reread your initial post now.

    What we do is hard ass work. We work hard and train hard, because public safety diving is dangerous. Your post made a mockery of that and indicates you think you could do a better job than the team that was on the scene. In two minutes, because why hurry.

    Until I have a whole lot more information that I've read, I have NO right to pass judgment on that team or critize their operation, and I'm a trained and experienced professional. I've given expert testimony in PSD related cases to courts, have you? Being a certified divemaster, mixed gas and cave certified, I'd think you would have a much better grasp of the difficulties, and have a much more informed and thought out opinion, but maybe I'm expecting too much.

    ---------- Post added March 15th, 2014 at 01:00 PM ----------

    From a Public Safety Diver point of view, a victim is a victim. I've spent two full days searching for a homicide weapon that was used to kill the child of a friend. I've spent two full days recovering parts of a homeless, illegal alien (and we knew this before starting). It just doesn't matter who it is.

    The guy's illegal? As a PSD I just don't care. He did something Stupid? As a PSD I just don't care (well, as a PSD, I'm thinking "typical" at this point, possibly quite loudly). Until my job's done, I just don't care and when it's done? I just don't care.

    Anything beyond this needs to be moved to a more appropriate place than Public Safety Diving. I'm suggesting the pub.

    My agency's procedure is that if the doors are all closed, and the windows all closed and no sign of life, the vehicle will be raised intact (unless the timeframe allows a reasonable possibility of rescue). No diver will penetrate or open the vehicle. Period. At any perceived sign of life, immediately commence rescue. Even though this would be in the briefing, I wouldn't really even have to say it. It's just standard procedure. If I or the other team leader is not on scene by the time diving operations commence, the senior member would give the same briefing. Can this change on scene? Absolutely. Has it ever changed? In 10 years, no, not for us. Is it likely to change? Might this afternoon, I don't know. I expect my divers to use their heads and judgement, and to use our policy and their training to make those decisions.

    At the end of the day, my people have to go home, or I have to go talk to their spouse and/or kids, and that conversation is not going to start out with "we were in a hurry", or "oopsie".

    If this had happened in my county, my name would be on the suit. When I'm on scene, anything good or bad that happens in the diving operation is my responsibility. If this guy want's to sit in court and look me in the eye for a few days, I'm just fine with that. I'm not going to stress one bit over this, as long as I followed my agency's procedures. The ones who should be pissed are the county citizens that are footing the bill for this crap.

    Would this guy suing me convince me to stop doing what I'm doing? Hell no. I deal with morons every day. If I can't deal with this one, I'm in the wrong line of work.
    Cave Diver, Mike and Jared0425 like this.
  4. tridacna

    tridacna ScubaBoard Supporter ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 2,500 - 4,999
    Location: New Jersey
    Report the post. I did. Moderators seem to think that this political BS seems to belong here. Don't ask me. :surrender:

    ---------- Post added March 15th, 2014 at 04:04 PM ----------

    I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue anymore.
  5. t4e

    t4e Regular of the Pub

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Burlington Ontario

    not any different then the burglar who sued the homeowner

    justice is blind!...i'll say loool
  6. MMM

    MMM Giant Squid Staff Member

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Sask. Canada/Cozumel, MX

    A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

    I have removed the off-topic discussion about the reliability of Fox News/root of all evil. Other posts may go as mods consider this thread. Please remember this forum is public safety divers. Marg, SB Senior Moderator
  7. Kharon

    Kharon Solo Diver

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Upstate NY
    Two hours????? What the eff was he doing? Even if all the doors were jammed shut he could have wound down (possibly) or broken a window and swum to the surface. It would be a cold day in hell before I would sit in a submerged car waiting to be rescued.
  8. doctormike

    doctormike ScubaBoard Supporter Staff Member ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: New York City
    Not sure how deep it was, but that can be quite hard if not impossible to do. Ambient pressure makes it hard to open doors. That's why I have heard that if you think that your car might go in the water, better to have the window cracked. Yes, the car will fill up, but at least you will be able to open the door.

    Very few cars these days have manual window cranks, so if the electric is out, so are the window controls.

    He might not have had anything to break the windows. It's a good idea to have something in your car for that. I keep one of these in my car (cuts seat belts too!).
  9. Diver0001

    Diver0001 Instructor, Scuba

    I saw something about that on Mythbusters once (http://mythbustersresults.com/episode72). I don't remember all the details but it convinced me to buy one of those little safety hammers, just in case.

    It doesn't seem unlikely to me at all that someone could get trapped in the car because they were unable to open the door or break a window by, for example, kicking it.

  10. doctormike

    doctormike ScubaBoard Supporter Staff Member ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: New York City
    Yeah, safety glass is designed to withstand a lot of blunt trauma, but to shatter into safe pieces with point impact. I also used to carry one of these when I was on the ambulance corps, many years ago (recommended by the vehicular extrication instructors, but not as much fun as the jaws of life).

    Interestingly enough, that mythbusters found that the electric windows WOULD work for a while after immersion in fresh water, but that they wouldn't be strong enough to overcome the pressure gradient.

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