Most disturbing phone call I've gotten in a long time

[Quero]

Was sitting here today finishing up an article for our quarterly journal when the phone rang. It was someone asking me about a price for certification. I told them my price and they then asked if there was a discount in they already had all their own gear and books. What books I asked? I have my PADI manual. I'm not a PADI instructor and require our own materials that are included in the price of the class. Then he informed me that he had already done all the skills and "stuff" and was pretty good with them. Where did he do this I asked. With XXX from YYY Scuba Club. We did some pool work and some OW dives and they said I just need to find an instructor to take my test and check me out on a couple dives and give me a card.

Gosh, Jim, it's clear that this has riled you up. I doubt I'd have been as suspicious of the motives of the dive club if it had been me answering that phone call. Here's what I would probably have concluded:

1) The student who phoned is confused about certification requirements and as a result misunderstands exactly what training he needs to get from an instructor.

2) The student is coming to me having done a DSD in the pool followed by one or more optional open water dives (this is permitted according to PADI standards). It would never occur to me to check the credentials of the person who conducted the DSD.

3) The student is asking for a discount on an Open Water course because he doesn't need rental equipment or a manual. Yes, I'll give him a discount, as long as the manual is the one he's required to use (obviously I can't give him credit for an SSI manual, for example), and as long as the equipment is what he's required to have.

4) Assuming the student and I reach an agreement on what training needs to be done and what the cost is, I'll teach the course as I always do, building on whatever skills and understanding the student has acquired during the DSD, and helping him to overcome whatever gaps there are so that working together we make him a safe and competent diver. I would also be glad that this student has a positive outlook coming into the course since he feels he is already "pretty good" (I'd take this to mean that he's comfortable in the water on scuba). It's always so much easier and more fun when the student is relaxed and confident that he'll be successful.

The whole rest of your original post (the part I didn't quote), describes detective work you did, repeats gossip about feuding business partners and hearsay about standards violations, and suggests that some shops in your area engage in unethical business practices--all nasty stuff for sure. I can't comment on any of that since in fact, I tend to think that there must be at least one other side to each of these stories.

 

[aikiguy]

Quero

You seem to rock!!!!!!!!

Way to be customer focused, and positive!!!!! Focus on the customers feelings, the expected result.. Impressive!

Guy

 

[DevonDiver]

The student is coming to me having done a DSD in the pool followed by one or more optional open water dives (this is permitted according to PADI standards). It would never occur to me to check the credentials of the person who conducted the DSD.

When accepting referrals or crediting DSDs to OW qualification, I would do several things:

1) In-water and classroom review of the student's skills and knowledge, appropriate to what standard they should be at.

2) Confirm all paperwork supplied by the student that is relevant to their previous instruction.

3) Confirm the status of the instructor/s who conducted the previous training. If PADI, then a pro-check. But generally, I will also send an email to the original instructor anway...

DSDs are a tricky issue...when they are completed with different operations and the student wants to credit them towards OW at a later stage. I know that a lot of scuba operations won't count them, unless the DSD was done at that dive centre and within a short time-scale before the OW course started.

DSDs can be conducted by DMs... in which case they cannot count towards OW.

I've seen DSDs run by out-of-status instructors (who still maintain necessary DM sub-qualification) that wouldn't count for OW. Only a pro-check would determine that.

I've seen DSDs run according to other agency standards, that would not satisfy the requirements of PADI OW training.

In addition, the inclusion of OW and confined skills, plus theory session, in an instructor-run DSD is very variable...and much less detailed than if they were teaching OW. I have seen lots of instructors who care less about 'mastery' because it is only a DSD 'experience'...and they won't have to sign their name on a PIC card for the student diver concerned.

For me...if a student has done DSD elsewhere...by the time I have run an in-water review/refresh of CW1... re-capped on KD1 etc.... it is as much, if not more, work than if the student had just completed those sections in the regular OW course process. It's hard to offer a big discount in that respect. I can credit for the OW1 dive... but that'd really limit the progress I can make with the student over the remaining duration of the OW course. In the students' best interest, there would have to be a very good reason for missing the opportunity to complete 4 training dives on the course. It's better for them if OW1 is repeated and used for reinforcement...leaving them with 5 logged dives (inc DSD) by the end of the course.

 

[k ellis]

I would say that when a customer calls and ask about instruction its apparent they are at least headed into the right direction. As I stated earlier its not really about fraud (With exception to possibly copy right infringement) so there is no real leaglities.

The concern Jim expressed is genuine and one I can appreciate in anyone who does not want to see anything bad happen to anyone and since he does not know the divemasters or what they are teaching I would be concerned too.

The fact is though even if they are not active whos to say they are less then qualified other then from the official standpoint of a backing training agency. They may have taught thousands of divers DSD over the years and then again maybe only a handful if any at all.

There is a problem with the economy now and because people are trying to gouge other people to death to suith there own need for money people are naturally cautious about quoted prices. Its like in Tulsa gas is 20 cents higher then oklahoma city yet its made in Tulsa. Its the supply and demand game and until people realize that supply is limited but not out of site. Also when demand is high people will look any where to save money.

All of us take for granted every day that the other person is legitamit. When we go buy gas for example we dont ask the gas station to see his point of origin on the gas he sales and we dont ask him if he bought it legaly or black marketed it. We dont have him open the tanks to test to see if water got into the tank yet we thank because he has a sign up that says "Chevron" he is a legitamit buisness that does not cut corners.

How many times have we went to walmart and bought ground beef and asked to speak with the packer himself and checked to make sure he is legitamit?

My point is we always take things for granted and should understand potential divers aspiring to be divers are no diffrent. They see us wearing dive gear and they see a sign or letterhead saying they can teach it alot of people would just say ok and how do I start.

I think a big concern in from many divers and I have witnessed first hand is they dont see the need to pay someone 150 dollars plus the cost of books and materials to learn how to dive. (And 150 dollars is only a guess so please dont crucify me for being off) they dont understand 150 dollars over 4 days breaks down to 50 dollars. When you factor in the cost of insurance, the cost of equipment upkeep (Rental) fuel to the site and if needed a hotel then it can add up to where less then x amount of divers is actually eating into their pockets.

We all love our sport because it defines who we are. Thats why we are on scuba board because we want to share our experiences and our love of the sport and no one here wants to read of a fatality in our sport. It happens though and it will continue to happen no matter what we do but it doesnt have to be overly common. We all owe it to ourselves and the sport we love so much to keep it safe and each one of us whether we are an instructor or not should step up to the plate like Jim did and if nothing else simply tell some one its not safe to do the activites we witness them doing when they are in fact not safe.

 

[Quero]

Yes, you are absolutely correct, Andy. But I wouldn't do all that checking simply because I never reduce the number of open water dives based on a DSD somebody else conducted. I will acknowledge the experience program to the student without any suggestion that it might have been lacking in any way at all; I'll say that we need to review the skills they worked on in the DSD; but I won't give any 'advance placement' credit for it towards the OW course (or any reduction in the course fee) as a result of a DSD a new student shows up with.

Now if I've done the DSD myself, it's a different story.

 

[DevonDiver]

Yes, that's my standpoint also.

I run my DSDs in the assumption that the person might want to progress onto OW. Quite a few do!

 

[Jim Lapenta]

After making the calls I did I left a message for the guy who called me to get back with me. PADI had asked that I try to have him call them. He called last night. When I told him PADI wanted him to call he told me that he

"didn't exactly train with them"!

He just went down to some of their sessions and

"got tips and pointers from some of the guys there".

I said what do you mean, What did you do when you signed the waiver to be there?

"I didn't sign any waivers."

So you just went in with your own gear and got in the pool with them.

Yes.

What about the classroom and books.

"Well there really wasn't any, I have a PADI instructor manual I got from the internet on my computer."!

But what about the OW dives they took you on?

"Well they actually didn't. That was a friend and I."

Why did you tell me about them saying a DM is allowed to lead divers.

"Cause that is what I thought it said in the Instructor manual. I figured I could get a better deal if I already knew the skills and we didn't have to spend as much time on training."

So all you did was just show up, got some tips from the DM's, and went on your own with a buddy on dives?

" Well, yeah."

So why did you tell me you have been working with them?

Cause I figured that would be enough to get a better price if I said that they had been helping me and thought I was ok."

But what about the skills you said you were good on? Who told you that?

"I have a card with I think 20 skills on it and I can do all of them. I've been "freediving" for a long time. They aren't that hard."

Then he asked me

"just how much does it cost to get certified"

I told you what it was before.

"No I mean just what do you pay for the card cause I know my lifeguard card is 20 bucks or so"

and he said something about how much the cpr registration was that I didn't get.

I said I just made calls based on what you told me about working with them and that you were being trained to PADI standards by them.

"Not really by them. I was just doing the stuff myself and they were there."

Coupled with what the shop owner told me about past practices he was running into with them I acted. Now I need to apologize to some people and am glad I did not publicly name the club here. I'm glad Pete contacted them as well.

Oh and the last thing he asked me was "Is there any way you can do better than the price you gave me since I do have my own stuff? That's just too expensive for me right now."

 

[FireInMyBones]

The CPR card or Lifeguard card usually requires a "support fee" for printing and logging in the agency computer. Some instructors will just charge the fee when doing a challenge (although a challenge assumes the student already took the course and is just re-certifying). I have called out a few instructors in my area for running challenges with people that have never been CPR trained, usually for their friends. I would not want that person doing CPR on me. Even though the skills are not hard, nor is the book understandings, failure to teach to the minimum standards for certification can get people hurt. I tell the instructors what a disservice they are doing their friends.

 

[The Chairman]

Cave emptorum!​

Or translated: Beware of the buyer! Most of us are used to Caveat emptor, or "Buyer beware", but savvy businesses have to be more and more concerned about being duped by potential clients. When I was in automotive, one of my associates used to repeat "Buyers are liars" several times a day. People would come in with a car barely running and declare "it just needs a tune up!" Well, on most newer cars, a tune up only consists of replacing the spark plugs and associated filters. Rarely would a routine tune up fix a thing and customers were told that right up front. In deed, we would ask for time to competently diagnose their running problems but they were all convinced because a friend of a friend of a mechanic in another city told them that they could get this done cheaply. Sometimes, at their behest we would indeed screw in a set of sparkplugs and look to see if there was anything obvious that would get them running again. Quite often, they would suggest that we were incompetent and/or larcenous for not presenting them with a perfectly running automobile. More often, we just refused the job. Rather than adopt my associates mantra, Buyers are Liars, I found that most of these incidents are a culmination of a lot of misinformation and assumptions by my potential customer. My job was to educate them about the value of a competent diagnosis and subsequent repair. It's not always easy and quite often they left in a huff. Somehow, even though I refused customers all the time, my business grew on the average of %20+ annually. Why? Honesty wasn't the best policy: it was the only one. Often, after they had spark plugs screwed in someplace else and found that I was completely honest in my dealings with them, they came back to get things fixed right. However, I would not let them label the mechanic who followed their request as a crook or charlatan. You can't expect miracles with any service provider if you are unwilling to give them all the details. It's obvious that if you send your mechanic on a wild goose chase, then it's going to waste his time and your money. That's not their fault as much as it is yours. To be sure, I actually found two of my mechanics that way. Yes, they had to be educated too.

As an instructor, my relationship with my clients must be based on mutual trust and respect. If I can't trust what you're telling me, there is no way we are going to be a good match in or out of the water. In fact, the more you with hold or embellish on information, the longer it's going to take me to get to the real source of your problems.

As an OW instructor, I simply don't accept Discover Scuba Experiences as dives. I tell people up front that I teach a complete class with a unique method and I am not cheap. Cheap is down the road somewhere, and I won't jeopardize their safety or education by trying to cut corners. It's just that simple. No, that doesn't mean that I take a LOOOOOONG time to teach someone Scuba, or to correct their bad habits. I just refuse to violate my system that seems to work well.

So, when people are trying to haggle me for whatever reason, gear/experience/whatever, I just say to myself Cave emptorum, and stick to my prices and my integrity. Why agree to screw in a set of spark plugs when you know that won't solve the problem?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I agree. I've learned a valuable lesson here. One of my biggest concerns is and has been safety. Perhaps even to the point of it being some type of crusade. Now I feel like a fool. It doesn't mean I'm going to stop being as concerned and conscious of it. What I will now do is check my source, check them again, and then check it a third time if I don't actually see the issue myself. This is the first time I've run into someone who thought that I should cut my cost and cut corners. And be so creative in trying to get me to do so. I am deeply sorry for all that this has caused. I was fooled and that is my error to deal with, correct, and try to prevent from happening again.