PADI Does Revoke Certifications

[DevonDiver]

BUT I have to say this one would be impossible to prove as:

Not sure...

1) the instructor delivered the product in terms of holding the classes, and

The 'classes' are of a standardized structure, and require demonstration of specific performance standards, as laid down by PADI.
You have to complete x dives, containing y skills and also complete z theory sessions etc.

If training standards for the course were not achieved/covered, then the course (the PADI 'product') was not delivered.

The difference is in the detail - you don't receive a 'Deep Course', your receive a 'PADI Deep Diver Course'.

2) you received the certifications.

This goes back to the old gem of: "Do you pay for the training or the certification?"

In this case, we are seeing (by PADI revoking the certification) that you can't receive the certification unless you've received the training, in a manner which complies with PADI's training standards.

Also, if the certification is revoked, then it is not received. There's more to certification that ownership of a c-card - for instance, the diver would also have their certification listed upon, and verifiable by, PADI's online database of certifications.

You'd be hard pressed to demonstrate that you did not get what you paid for based on a quality argument where the student says he was not good enough to get the cert when the instructor feels differently.

Simple.

Using the Deep Course as an example, go through the following as a check-list. Any deficiencies indicate that the 'product' was not supplied. A deficiency from the training standards (what PADI says you must do on the course) and/or the performance requirements (what PADI says you must achieve on each dive/skill) indicates that the 'product' was not delivered appropriately and completely:

PADI DEEP DIVER COURSE

Note: Knowledge Review I and Dive I may be accepted as complete, following completion of the AOW Deep Dive.

Theory
Knowledge Reviews Part I & II. Presented and reviewed by the instructor.

Open Water Training Dive 1
(Recommended depth: 24 metres/80 feet - 30 metres/100 feet.
Maximum depth: 30 metres/100 feet)
Performance Requirements
By the end of this open water training session, you will be able to:
• Execute a descent using a reference as a tactile or visual guide (line or sloping bottom).
• Compare the amount of time needed to complete a task on the surface and at depth.
• Compare your own depth gauge to your instructor’s and/or other student’s depth gauges.
• Use a depth gauge and timing device (or a decompression computer with an ascent-rate indicator) to measure an ascent rate not to exceed 18 metres/60 feet per minute.
• Perform an ascent using a reference line or sloping bottom as a tactile guide.
• Perform a three-minute safety stop at 5 metres/15 feet before surfacing.

Open Water Training Dive 2
(Recommended depth: 18 metres/60 feet to 24 metres/80 feet
Performance Requirements.
By the end of this open water training session, you will be able to:
• Execute a “free” descent using a reference line, wall or sloping bottom as a visual guide only.
• Describe and record the changes that occur to three pressure-sensitive items while at depth.
• Perform a navigation swim with a compass away from, and back to, the anchor of the reference line (one diver navigates away from, the
other navigates back to, the reference line for a distance of between 10 to 20 kick cycles, depending on visibility).
• Perform an ascent using a reference line as a visual guide only.
• Use depth gauge and timing device (or decompression computer with ascent-rate indicator) to measure an ascent rate not to exceed 18 metres/60 feet per minute.
• Perform a three-minute safety stop at 5 metres/15 feet before surfacing without physically holding on to a reference line for positioning.

Open Water Training Dive 3
(Recommended depth: 30 metres/100 feet - 40 metres/130 feet
Performance Requirements.
By the end of this open water training session, you will be able to:
• Execute a descent using a reference line, wall or sloping bottom as a tactile guide.
• Describe and record changes of colors at depth.
• Perform an ascent using a reference line as a tactile guide.
• Use a depth gauge and timing device (or decompression computer with ascent-rate indicator) to measure an ascent rate not to exceed 18 metres/60 feet per minute.
• Perform an 8-minute simulated emergency decompression stop at 5 metres/15 feet before surfacing, while breathing from an emergency air source for at least one minute of the total time.


Open Water Training Dive 4
(Recommended depth: 18 metres/60 feet to 30 metres/100 feet)
Performance Requirements.
By the end of this open water training session, you will be able to:
• Execute a descent using the contour of a sloping bottom, wall or ascent/descent line as a reference.
• Complete an underwater tour of the area.
• Perform an ascent using the contour of a sloping bottom, wall or ascent/descent line as a reference.
• Use your depth gauge and timing device (or decompression computer with ascent-rate indicator) to measure an ascent rate not to exceed 18 metres/60 feet per minute.
• Perform a three-minute safety stop at 5 metres/15 feet before surfacing

 

[TracyN]

Sounds like the instructor is just looking to get certs under her belt. With this poor service, i hope that at the very least, the drysuit fits properly. Nothing worse than a poor fitting drysuit.

Sadly the drysuit does not fit all that well and it blew on a dive 2 weeks ago. I don't even know if it's worth getting fixed or not. I got scammed all around by this instructor

---------- Post Merged at 10:21 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:10 PM ----------

Devon, nothing like that was ever covered! That's why I reported this instructor to PADI and volunteered to relinquish my certs. I didn't think they'd actually do it. Granted I'm a cave diver so these certifications mean nothing to me but I just wanted to make sure this instructor doesn't screw or hurt somebody else.

 

[mike_s]

I know they are investigating her but that's about all I know. I do know that once the investigation is complete PADI will let me know but they won't tell me what actions were taken, if any.

Here is a list of instructors,, asst Instructors, dive masters "banned" from PADI.


Check and see if your instructors name is on this list. (I have no clue how often this is updated. chances are if she's recently banned, she might not be on the list yet.)


http://www.padi.com/scuba/about-pad...s/special-advisories/Divemasters-Instructors/

 

[MarineResearch]

There were no classes to speak of. I never got any books or other study materials, no quizzes or knowledge reviews were done and I didn't even do the required number of dives and the dives I did do were in an overhead environment. I didn't even know she submitted my Deep Specialty until I received the card in the mail! The drysuit class I got because I bought the drysuit from her.

The drysuit class consisted of me doing one dive in a cavern. I was underweighted for the suit and had mild difficulty getting down. On the way up I didn't have enough weight to maintain the safety stop so I had a rapid ascent from 25 feet. Upon surfacing the instructor told me that she didn't think I would have enough weight to maintain the safety stop.

When I asked the instructor why I received the Deep Specialty she told me that she saw me safely conduct a cave dive from 90 feet and for her that satisfied the Deep requirements. Then she said I owed her $27.50 for the processing fee.

Essentially I received two worthless pieces of plastic in the mail. I certainly hope they do something with her instructor status because if she continues to instruct the way she does, someone is going to get hurt or killed.

As a "Newly Minted Cave Diver" I'm afraid that you are going to have to return your cave certification as well. Since you are clearly not a competent deep diver, this must mean that you are not competent in Decompression Procedures either, which means that you can't be a competent cave diver without these important prerequisites.

The PADI drysuit diver and deep diver certifications are not the most rigorous of course offerings. While If you are uncomfortable with your skill level in these specialities, just get the crew packs and cover the material that your instructor should have required. Your "instructor" probably thought that you demonstrated adequate skills and submitted the certifications without you actually having completed the formal course work. If you have completed a course on Decompression Procedures (or other similar tec diving course), you have already covered a lot more than the PADI Deep Diver course. From your description, it sounds like you may need more instruction and/or practical experience for drysuit diving.

It is curious that PADI will not share the results of their investigation. PADI publishes their Quality Management Statistics in The Undersea Journal, and includes detailed information on members that are expelled or suspended. A PADI Divemaster or Instructor can also verify an instructor's status online.

 

[TracyN]

As a "Newly Minted Cave Diver" I'm afraid that you are going to have to return your cave certification as well. Since you are clearly not a competent deep diver, this must mean that you are not competent in Decompression Procedures either, which means that you can't be a competent cave diver without these important prerequisites.

The PADI drysuit diver and deep diver certifications are not the most rigorous of course offerings. While If you are uncomfortable with your skill level in these specialities, just get the crew packs and cover the material that your instructor should have required. Your "instructor" probably thought that you demonstrated adequate skills and submitted the certifications without you actually having completed the formal course work. If you have completed a course on Decompression Procedures (or other similar tec diving course), you have already covered a lot more than the PADI Deep Diver course. From your description, it sounds like you may need more instruction and/or practical experience for drysuit diving.

It is curious that PADI will not share the results of their investigation. PADI publishes their Quality Management Statistics in The Undersea Journal, and includes detailed information on members that are expelled or suspended. A PADI Divemaster or Instructor can also verify an instructor's status online.

LoL! As a cave diver I don't feel safe going to 130 feet in OW.

---------- Post Merged at 10:54 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:52 PM ----------

This is the email I received from PADI.




Dear Tracy,

Thank you for your swift and thorough reply. We appreciate your time in providing the additional information requested. The purpose in asking if you participated in the Dry Suit Adventure dive during your PADI Advanced Open Water Diver course is because if you completed that dive during you Advanced Open Water Diver course, then only one additional training dive would have been necessary to complete the PADI Dry Suit Specialty course. However, in this case, since you only completed one training dive in total, we must unfortunately rescind your Dry Suit Diver certification as well as your Deep Diver certification.

We will notify you once we complete this quality management inquiry and if any other issues become apparent during this inquiry, please feel free to contact me at 800 729-7234, extension 2328 or by email to tom.warnack@padi.com

Best regards,

Tom Warnack
Consultant

---------- Post Merged at 10:57 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:52 PM ----------

Here is the first email I received from them


Dear Tracy,

With respect to your PADI Deep Diver and Dry Suit Diver Specialty courses, we appreciate your understanding that if you did not meet the performance requirements for these two courses, we need to revoke your certifications, and also appreciate your offer to return these two certification cards. I will notify our Certification Department tomorrow morning to remove these two certifications from your records and request that you please send me your PADI Deep Diver Specialty certification card and your PADI Dry Suit Diver Specialty certification card so I may keep these with the quality management file.

Please mail these two certification cards to:

PADI
30151 Tomas
Rancho Santa Margarita , CA 92688-2125
ATTENTION: TOM WARNACK

 

[DevonDiver]

Nice reply from PADI.. excellent customer service (not).... no apology or advice on how to resolve the issue to your satisfaction.

The PADI representative comes across as an 'administrator', who complete fails to appreciate that the customer might be seriously aggrieved by the issue. Terrible, awful customer service...

PADI should be responsible for refunding the certification (PIC card) fee. That is a cost under their control - and if the certification is rescinded, then they aren't supplying the goods which you paid for.

The instructor's failure is another matter. PADI received no money for the training - so aren't in a position to refund that on behalf of the errant instructor.

That said, PADI should take some responsibility for the failures of their 'authorized' instructors. They have a Quality Assurance system... which has obviously failed to assure the necessary quality.

PADI does a lot of marketing - it'd be interesting to see if anywhere in that material they make a claim along the lines of 'brand trust'. i.e. If you dive with an authorized PADI instructor/dive center then you can be assured of x standards or y quality. If you can find such a claim, then there may be grounds for legal pursuit of the agency (?).

I'm actually surprised that PADI aren't more forthcoming about this issue - as the facts of the matter could be very damaging for their brand image. They spend a fortune to promote/market themselves as being globally consistent in training quality.... they should be willing to 'put their money where their mouth is' in respect of assuring that quality of experience for customers. That they are not, speaks of a significant disassociation between the agency and its authorized instructors/centers. In short - they offer no quality assurance for customers - thus, the brand image might be considered insubstantial and meaningless in respect of quality.

 

[Ayisha]

I doubt PADI is going to do anything against the instructor. Anyone can make any complaint against a shop or instructor, so I very highly doubt a single one is going to cause any action...

Not necessarily. It happened here with the allegations of a student and a corroborating email from the instructor. It was a completely different type of case, but one student can be enough. One would never know if they're the only one and you wouldn't want it to happen to anyone else.

I regretted not reporting this instructor that taught my friend her o/w because I felt it should come from her, rather than me, an onlooker, and a friend of the instructor until then. She did NO skills with him on her o/w, and simply went touring, although she did some skills on her dives with the other instructors. I called him on it and he was simply angry at being caught and said he forgot, so I pointed out his co-instructor's flip set of u/w skills cards. They had me help students with skills and I wasn't a DM, not even a wannabe. I later found one of the teenage students alone about 50 feet from anyone including his instructor who didn't even know he was missing. The 13 year old was panicking *hopping* on the bottom with his tank floating and I replaced it and returned him to his instructor. I reported it to my friend's instructor, whom I thought had to report it. During my friend's AOW, again with him a few weeks later, she did NO skills, just touring. Another student ran out of air and had to share air and still passed. My friend had little to no buoyancy control, was very overweighted, sculled with her hands, had never even done a weighting check, and could not control her ascent even sufficiently. Fast forward a couple of years and another student had a completely different complaint against the instructor and he was expelled. My friend went on to have a somewhat fast ascent from a deep dive, blowing our deep stop, caught several times and slowed down by me. She gave me the "ok" back for her to slow down each time before I let go, and she apparently also held her breath, getting a mild lung-overexpansion injury. She was not cleared to dive for 6 months, but over 3 years later, she has still never been diving again.

Where one student has issues with an instructor, there may be others that don't speak up.

 

[TracyN]

Ok well this should answer everyone's question about compensation. This just in from PADI.



Dear Tracy,

I'm sorry but we are unable to provide you a refund or compensation for payments made to Ms. Treanor as she is not a PADI employee and your fees were paid directly to Ms. Treanor rather than to PADI.

In light of the circumstances however, if you decide to seek training from a different instructor for your Deep Diver and Dry Suit Diver specialty certifications, we would be pleased to waive the processing fees that are typically required to process these certifications. In order to accomplish this waiver it is important to have your new instructor contact me in advance of your training so that I may explain to your new instructor how this can be accomplished.

Best regards,

Tom Warnack
Consultant

 

[mike_s]

well PADI didn't have any trouble taking your money for your PIC Card. but they won't refund it when one of their instructors (employee or not, they are a representative), uses PADI to defraud you.

when you report the fraud, they say "no refund".


I guess PADI really does stand for Put Another Dollar In.

 

[eelnoraa]

There were no classes to speak of. I never got any books or other study materials, no quizzes or knowledge reviews were done and I didn't even do the required number of dives and the dives I did do were in an overhead environment. I didn't even know she submitted my Deep Specialty until I received the card in the mail! The drysuit class I got because I bought the drysuit from her.

The drysuit class consisted of me doing one dive in a cavern. I was underweighted for the suit and had mild difficulty getting down. On the way up I didn't have enough weight to maintain the safety stop so I had a rapid ascent from 25 feet. Upon surfacing the instructor told me that she didn't think I would have enough weight to maintain the safety stop.

When I asked the instructor why I received the Deep Specialty she told me that she saw me safely conduct a cave dive from 90 feet and for her that satisfied the Deep requirements. Then she said I owed her $27.50 for the processing fee.

Essentially I received two worthless pieces of plastic in the mail. I certainly hope they do something with her instructor status because if she continues to instruct the way she does, someone is going to get hurt or killed.

I still don't understand. Did your or did you NOT pay for Drysuit and Deep Specialty class? It seems to me you only pay for the fees for PADI to print the card.

It sounds to me that you bought a drysuit from a PADI instructor, NOT any classes. And the instructor offered to give you a drysuit intro. At the end of the dives, she thought you have a good understanding of drysuit diving and gave your a Drysuit card. And since the dive happen to reach 90ft, she also give your a Deep Specialty cert. You didn't register or pay for any official PADI class. You only pay the $27.50 for PADI to print the card. Did I get this right?