Padi Master scuba diver

[HIGHwing]

Has ANYONE reading this thread ever been involved in a lawsuit regarding a dive trip?
(Maybe a couple)
Has ANYONE of the (two) above been a DM or Instructor?
(??)
Has any one of the instructors above hidden his qualifications at the time he signed on the dive?
(???)
Has the guy who hid his quals been hounded as a deep pocket for "lying"?
(????)

Sometimes, the posters on SB get a little carried away with what-if's.
(myself included)

Do we have ANY legal facts here?

I'll let you know in about 1.5 - 2 years if allowed. What I can say at this moment is you'd be in awe of how far people are willing to take a "misrepresentation of the facts" as it pertains to "asserting reduced responsibility". That's what this ends up being about; winning a case. What's right, ethical, and common sense are less relevant than winning a technical argument on a flawed basis. My assumption going forward is if I see a diver in trouble underwater, as a dive professional I have some level of duty of care which is determined or assigned by what a plaintiff's lawyer can get 12 non-divers to believe. I think that frame of reference will help me make decisions about how I approach the situation.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The only reason a DM or instructor is more likely to get sued in the above scenario is because, as a DM or instructor you are required to carry liability insurance ... which makes you worth suing.

Actual duty of care exists only if (a) you were somehow involved in the events leading up to the accident or (b) you set an expectation for a duty of care that you failed to provide.

As just another uninvolved diver on the boat, you have no liability greater than anyone else. That said, you can be sued regardless.

I always just show my instructor card. Rarely does it matter. Only once was I asked if I would mind pairing up with a new diver. And since I was in Hawaii, and just paid a hefty fee to come out on this boat, I said "yes, I do mind". They paired the new diver up with someone else and I had a nice dive with an experienced DM.

That said, there's one local charter operation who insists that all DM's and instructors need to put his boat as a rider on their insurance policy, even if they're just out for a fun dive. I don't use his boat anymore because of that requirement.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Grocio]

Hi Diver0001,

The story you told us is quite sad, for sure. Yet I wouldn't conclude 'lawyers will say literally anything in order to win', because it's a hasty generalization. If we were to follow the same line of thought based on that story, we should also conclude that all DMs are liars and incompetent, which is also false.

I know many lawyers, including myself, which won't say anything in order to win. And I also know many honest and competent DMs that are not liars and incompetent, as the DMs of your story.

We find good and bad apples in every market and the professions of DM and lawyer are no exception, I think.

G.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Roturners story is too close to home for me . I was taught to follow the DM's instructions in a similar situation. Long story short when I ran low and showed the DM instead of ascending or staying put, she took me deeper to where the instructor was with other students! Result - OOA at twenty feet as were ascending. Instructor gave me his octo and we ascended to the surface. DM's reaction? None to me. Did not even ask if I was ok. Did ask the instructor what she was supposed to do. She had been told. Fast forward two.years to me as a DM. Similar situation. Stay with students till instructor gets back. Don't go anywhere. Ok. Student signals low on air. Look at his gauge. 750 psi. We are at 20 feet. Others have nearly 1400. Instructor gone fifteen minutes so far. Decision is up to me. Student who showed 750 also looks a little nervous. Screw the instructor. We do a nice leisury ascent along the bottom student surfaces with 400 psi. Instructor shows up fifteen minutes later. Asks what happened. Told him and added was not going to let what happened to me occurr. Result nice big atta boy.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

 

[James R]

The issue isn't being questioned as a witness. Some people seem to believe that by failing to disclose the fact they are a PADI 'professional', they could find themselves being sued or prosecuted.

That is not accurate.

No one is saying they are worried about being sued or prosecuted for failing to disclose a professional level certification.

 

[Mustard Dave]

That is not accurate.

No one is saying they are worried about being sued or prosecuted for failing to disclose a professional level certification.

Oh no?

There are two schools of thought about that. On the one hand you might be more likely in some cases to be asked to play some kind of a role like buddy up with a rookie diver or follow on behind a group to sweep up stragglers if you show a DM or an instructor card. In those cases you're welcome to either accept or refuse depending on your disposition but some people find being asked to contribute to a dive so annoying that they lie about their qualifications in order to avoid the question.

The other thought that I think you need to consider is that *IF* something happens your pockets may not look "zipped shut" to a liability lawyer if you deliberately mislead the dive team as to your qualifications. In accident I can see a lawyer making that claim that if you hadn't lied that that dive team would have made other decisions and that the accident wouldn't have happened, essentially blaming your lie for causing the accident, even if it has nothing to do with it. Remember, lawyers don't care what really happened, all they want is to be able to nail someone for it.

That second bit is why I never lie about my qualifications, and to be honest, while it has happened from time to time, I've never felt that a dive crew asked me to do something that would have caused a conflict if I had declined.

R..

First part of your question - none. Other than your wallet is lighter by the amount you could have used to buy the cute lady at the bar a drink and dinner.

Second part - none. No liability at all. Unless you agree to assume some. Or maybe an op or resort will ask you to buddy with a new diver. If so make them pay you or at least comp you the dive. If that happens make the newbie sign a release. Which will be meaningless as anyone can sue you for anything. Do not lie about or hide the cert. It will come out in discovery anyway if the SHTF and then some one will want to know what else you have to hide.

Hey thanks guys -This is pretty much as I thought. Basicly pure ego.
Re liability for divemaster-Forgive my stupidity but if I'm NOT working as a DM or even a defacto DM then whats the harm in showing my next highest card when sighning up onto a boat.?

I use to think this was a logical line of thinking. Now being more informed, I realize lying about your qualifications for personal gain is pointless when the police show up at your home. Now you have to explain why you lied. In my renewed view on topic, I'd rather be as honest as I can from the start. As a professional you always retain two very handy options 1) Informing the charter operator you do not have them listed as additional insured, and 2) Refuse a liability waiver from the client signed under duress (i.e. I don't sign in 5 minutes and I'll miss the dive).

I have the MSD card, but only because I didn't have to pay for it past taking the specialties. Now the LDS charges for it, so even though she has met the requirements my gf doesn't have the card and doesn't care.

She brings her nitrox and aow cards on trips, and I bring a tec card which shows I can use up to 100% and have never had any issues. While I am a PADI Pro, I don't carry those cards on trips because they simply aren't needed, not because I am trying to hide it from the dive center. I have never had a dive op try to get me to help in any professional role, and I would be quite surprised if it ever happened. That said, if something goes down, you better believe they will find out who all the divers were and who holds a Pro rating.

We live in a litigious society, like it or not. I don't fear getting sued because I happened to be on a dive boat when an accident happened any more than I fear flying (I love it once I get through security), but I am aware of what "could" happen.

Maybe it's because I know too many lawyers...

 

[James R]

Dave, are you seriously not able to comprehend my post? Or are you trying to argue for the sake of stating or having an argument?

Lets re-read your post and my reply again, and like you I will make my points in bold. I will even add some color.

You said "The issue isn't being questioned as a witness. Some people seem to believe that by failing to disclose the fact they are a PADI 'professional', they could find themselves being sued or prosecuted."

THEN

I said, , "No one is saying they are worried about being sued or prosecuted for failing to disclose a professional level certification."

See the part in red? THAT is what I was replying to. That is all. In blue bold above I specified exactly that.

Of course one will sue or prosecute you for not showing a Pro level cert. That's completely ridiculous! Again, the text above in nice bold red is all I was replying to you about! The rest of the quotes you spent all that time gathering so nicely have nothing to do with what I disagreed with you about.

 

[Mustard Dave]

Of course one will sue or prosecute you for not showing a Pro level cert.

Correct. But there are plenty of people that believe the opposite as demonstrated by the posts I've quoted.

 

[nimoh]

Correct. But there are plenty of people that believe the opposite as demonstrated by the posts I've quoted.

I believe you missed the "That's completely ridiculous!" part

 

[northen diver]

First part of your question - none. Other than your wallet is lighter by the amount you could have used to buy the cute lady at the bar a drink and dinner.

Second part - none. No liability at all. Unless you agree to assume some. Or maybe an op or resort will ask you to buddy with a new diver. If so make them pay you or at least comp you the dive. If that happens make the newbie sign a release. Which will be meaningless as anyone can sue you for anything. Do not lie about or hide the cert. It will come out in discovery anyway if the SHTF and then some one will want to know what else you have to hide.

I respectfully disagree. Look at the SEI master diver program. It is a "earn" as you go (as I am sure you know).

I been diving for sometime now, well over 500 dives. I am going to be taking the master diver program with Tom Leaird this year for I beleive it will increase my skills. It has been almost ten years since I took the SLAM course and this is one of the prerequsitions for the course. It has been a while since I practice my SLAM skills. I practice my mask clearing on a regular basis, but I never practiced it between 80'- 100' depth which is a requirement for SEI. I KNOW that I am going to learn and improve my skills with this course. I think if you get the right instructor and right agency, the course is worth it.