SM with warm water / travel reg vs. APEKS XTX50

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DanSEA, [..] What you can do is buy a 1st stage Titan LX, for cold water and with DIN, [..] if you find them in Yoke, so don't let the dive shops trick you telling you that because you wan't then in DIN they are more expensive.

Thanks, fully agree with DIN - Yoke was never a consideration (although I currently have Yoke but lesson learned already ;-)). In regards to the Titan LX: I don't want to mix too much as it makes service more troublesome from what I learned. Further, I can fully exclude the cold water diving scenario (3mm shorty is the max I can take; preferably I dive in swimming shorts only).

[..] or a APEKS DS4 they are cheap, the APEKS comes normally with DIN, it will be actually more expensive

In that case, I would rather pay a bit of premium for the APEKS DST with 5th port option as per Andy's (DevonDiver's) suggestion regarding clean routing.

My initial point was that the APEKS set is quite heavy / bulky compared to the Mikron.

Remember as well you need some good Bungee straps to tow in your hose, that save you from entanglement in high risk areas, if you see my profile picture, that is what it looks like when you can't strap your hoses in and I have two long hoses, that make it look even worse.

Could not agree more!!! Even with BM, I had a utter lean setup (e.g. streamlined regulator configuration , no straps etc.) with nothing hanging around there, as I cannot stand it.



Those diving the Mikron on SM, could you share pictures? I am curious to see the hose routing. Thank you!
 
I think keeping your micron 2nd stages and getting a pair of DSTs gets you the best of both worlds.

If it were me (and I have taken a hard look at lightening up my own bags), My priority for SM OW diving on vacation would be, 1) quality/reliability, 2) streamlining, 3) weight. I would consider the DST to be a first pic for the first two criteria, which means it beats out others (like the DS4 and Micron 1st stage) that have #1 and #3, but fail at #2. Of course, #2 is the one that can be changed by your configuration, which could be a way to save weight (by fixing the streamlining problem of a lighter reg).

I would(and do) accept the weight of the DST and look elsewhere for weight savings. If you're SM you probably have light fins, no wetsuit in the warm waters, that leaves your BC and any goodies you like to bring with. Some SM BCs have a lot of padding and extra parts that add weight. Instead of weight pockets you can use some bungee to attach weights. If you bring your own cam bands and tank rigging, some of them are lighter and slimmer than others. You save a little bit of weight using braided hoses instead of rubber (but replace them more frequently).
 
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Dan I mention just the Cold Water setup, because you pointed out the Breathing capabilities between the APEKS and AL, I know you dive warm water.

if you are not diving beyond 35m, the Mikron is more than enough in my opinion, but if money is not of a concern yes go for purposely made Sidemount 1st stages.

Where I have done most of my Scuba training they advocate for Sidemount, most of us in the dive club have Sidemount, non of us use purposely made 1st stages, all of us use DS4 for our main tanks, some others use AL Legend, non of us have issues with hose routing, I guess non of us are willing to pay the extra buck for the APEKS sidemount regulators.

Our Instructor push us to go sidemount, but he as well say that Sidemount regulators are not necessary if you don't have the extra buck to spend, he even doesn't have them.

I can tell you that the AL have a little better positioning of the Ports compared to my DS4.

If weight is a concern the APEKS 1st stages are about 30% heavier then my AL Titans

Installing DIN in your YOKE Mikron accounts for a reduction of 20% weight.
 
I guess non of us are willing to pay the extra buck for the APEKS sidemount regulators.

You can buy upgrade kits for the DS4. Or you can buy some new 1st stages only.

You wouldn't need to buy a completely new Apeks sidemount reg set, which is also one of the most expensive on the market...

Cheaper options would be HOG or Deep6. Both under 1/2 the cost of Apeks.

Take a look:
The $1200 Budget Sidemount Diver

Our Instructor push us to go sidemount, but he as well say that Sidemount regulators are not necessary if you don't have the extra buck to spend, he even doesn't have them.

Kinda like the instructors who don't have sidemount BCDs and teach students it's OK to clip stage-rigged cylinders onto a regular BP&W?

You'd think that when pushing all his students through sidemount courses, he'd have enough money to equip himself in a professional an role-model manner....?
 
Cheaper options would be HOG or Deep6. Both under 1/2 the cost of Apeks.

Take a look:
The $1200 Budget Sidemount Diver
That's not cheaper! Unless you're located in the US, Deep6 is more expensive than Apeks. It's weird too, since Deep6 does direct marketing.

Getting service and parts is also cheaper and easier for Apeks than for the other once.

Maybe you should add to your article that it's meant for Americans... or maybe for other people too, if Trump gets elected and the Dollar takes a nose dive, which it will.
 
You can buy upgrade kits for the DS4. Or you can buy some new 1st stages only.

You wouldn't need to buy a completely new Apeks sidemount reg set, which is also one of the most expensive on the market...

Cheaper options would be HOG or Deep6. Both under 1/2 the cost of Apeks.

Take a look:
The $1200 Budget Sidemount Diver



Kinda like the instructors who don't have sidemount BCDs and teach students it's OK to clip stage-rigged cylinders onto a regular BP&W?

You'd think that when pushing all his students through sidemount courses, he'd have enough money to equip himself in a professional an role-model manner....?

If you are referring to put the DST swivel head on my DS4, it is just another thing of perspective, how you see things and how I see them.

I prefer to have a little not optimal routing vs another leak point and service part.


Divers

Now just to put MY PERSPECTIVE of how I see things, get your potatos chips and a soda or bear because you will take some time to read.


I got my Sidemount kit for 700eu, but with second hand DS4 1st stage with the predecessor of the XTX the ATX 2nd stage ( XTX is just the same but more nicer cosmetics ), I got a nice price for the sidemount system that the Instructor developed, I have not seen noting like it anywhere in quality and good gear, you only can find it in his shop and it quite different than X-deep and a lot more sturdy and quality than X-deep or other brands.

Yes he and some of us can buy the purposely made sidemount regulators, but we DON'T have issues with hose routing, so why spend the money in that, we all spend it in Carbon Bottles instead ( yeah they cost a **** load of money ), it is were you want to spend the money if you have it, it doesn't make since to spend the extra buck to replace something that works fine, unless you have a lot a money and that you don't care, it is a question of perspective.

APEKS is not expensive compared to SP and the ridicules prices of Atomic, all do the same **** and perform the same, a lot of placebo effect at shallow where most diver spend their time.

AL/APEKS are very old brands with very know performance, APEKS makes a lot of regulators for the other Brands, which are sad copies of the APEKS, maybe cheaper, sometimes not, a little cosmetic changes and they called with their name ( very exotic names sometimes ), it is just a sad joke, please open your eyes.

There is nothing new that you can do to a dive 1st stage regulator, it is what it is, all there is is fancy names and a lot of cosmetics and marketing for dumb consumers, there has not been a real break-thru and innovation in the last 15 year or even more, regarding 1st stages.

All there is, is the way you see it on your own perspective.

If I had a lot of money I will buy the FSR from APEKS just because I have to much money, is it really better than a DST or DS4, NO, not really, yeah it have nice cosmetics, nice type of Alloy, a little better routing yes I give you that, but it performs exactly the same, then you hear yeah but it last 50 years because it is a special alloy, please come on, like you will dive that long in your live time, the DS4 you can dive it for probably 20 years or more, and if stops working it way it did before it is just time to buy another one for 3 times less the price of a fancy one,the DS4 had pay back the money years ago if it is that this times come, where you can't service it anymore.

There are a lot silly arguments of this is better than that, this breathe better than those, bla,bla bla, you hardly notice the difference it is a lot of placebo effect, between brands, I'm talking about over-balanced regulators. ( I have noticed differences on non-balanced ones between brands or maybe I encounter my self bad serviced ones vs good serviced ones from different brands)

It is funny, to see people that spend most of there 20 dives a year at 20m max and have very expensive Gear, where actually it is gear that will perform as stated in deep conditions where you really need the good breathing performance numbers, but HEYYYY stop a moment there, that is their money and their perspective.

Just look at the regulators prices in this link

Regulators Regulators 1st stage buy and offers on Scubastore

Look at a price of a DS4 = 149eu , the price of a FSR = 247eu ( good discount ), the price of DST = 255eu

Now guess what !, all three have a Avg WOB of 0.70 joules/liter, in other words they do the exact same ****

Another exercise lets look at Aqua-Lung

AL Core ( aka old Titan more ****** marketing ) = 167eu, the price of a Legend = 329eu, the price of Glacia = 259eu

WOB for the Core is of Avg 0.79 Joules/ liter ( numbers downgraded for marketing so you buy Legends ) the legend and Glacia = Avg 0.65 Joules/liter

You hardly will notice a difference between 0.79 and 0.65 joules/liter

All perform the same, maybe ones a little better in very very cold conditions to minimize a free-flow, but the large majority of divers don't do ice diving, so lest get back to reality.

Same go for the other Brands with expensive stuff and copied stuff.

You go to Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, etc, etc and see the pour in the middle of no-where divemasters, with bit up regulators hardly maintained some times non-balanced regulators, do 100's of dives a year, they do way more dives than anybody can think with a 80 Buck regulator that does a little worse than your 500+ regulator, you don't hear that they are dying every month, or do you ??? and they do 100's of more dives than anyone here, so what is actually what, it is just the perspective how you see things, you think a 500+$/EU regulator will be safer than a 80$/EU regulator at 20m depth in tropical waters, everybody is certainly entitled to its own perspective of seeing things the way they do.

I choose the Real Old originals brands if you can call them that, I choose AL or APEKS, but because they have good reputation and they are cheap compared to the other big Brands with exotic names.

Yes I can get me a APEKS copy that is a little cheaper and that perform the same, but for respect of the ORIGINAL if you say it in some way like that, I prefer to buy the real maker, there is truly no better performance of one over the other, they do the same ****, but again that is my perspective, others have other perspectives.

my 2 cents for the day, of like others say, that is my story and I'm sticking to it.
 
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... , it is just another thing of perspective, how you see things and how I see them.

I saw things differently back when I was a inexperienced diver also. My perspective has changed lots over the years and 0000's of dives.

It's a lot easier to be content and satisfied with something whilst you've still had little exposure to alternatives and better results.

I do actually live in the Philippines, working as a full-time Pro (tech, sidemount and advanced wreck). You're correct that the dive schedule is many hundreds of dives per year. You are incorrect that dive pros use junk old regulators, that don't get serviced or maintained diligently.

As for assuming 'placebo effect', I think that perspective stems from inexperience. I wouldn't expect a novice diver to appreciate the nuances in performance between low, mid and high grade equipment.

Given that this debate is in the sidemount forum, I think it's blinkered to assume that 'most' (sidemount) divers won't be going deeper than 20m. It's certainly true that sidemount is firmly embedded as an option for recreational diving, but it tends to primarily attract divers who are likewise motivated towards pursuing more advanced diving activities.

That's certainly my experience, having taught hundreds of sidemount courses over the years. I'd struggle to remember any recreational-level students who didn't express some future interest in cave, wreck or deco diving.
 
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Wow. What an interestinng discussion it became. Thank you very much for helping me to make my mind :)

I'd struggle to remember any recreational-level students who didn't express some future interest in cave, wreck or deco diving.

Very valid point. I thought that I was done with my equipment and the second I got introduced to side mount, I got excited. Same may likely happen to CD and WD.
 
I do not believe the DS4 can be upgraded othere than converting to DIN/Yoke. The DST can have the 5th port added to the bottom of the reg by changing out the turret retaining bolt to one with the 5th port incorporated into it.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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