The "other" end of the DIR question

[Kim]

I don't believe I've tried to convert anyone....I could care less how you or anyone else outside my diving team dives. However, it is irritating when people make false claims and assumptions that reflect upon me. Usually that is the only time I jump into these type of debates.

I'm not saying that you are such a person - or even that most DIR divers are. What I'm saying is that SOME people fit that description completely - and are often the loudest about it as well. It's a pity that their attitude probably reflects more on all DIR divers than anything an outsider could say.
I've seen many divers from different certifying agencies dive. Sometimes they are downright dangerous. Does that reflect on me? I don't think so. I dive as I have been taught - as safely as possible. I was originally taught by PADI - does that automatically make me a bad diver? In the end this is surely about what the individual takes from their training - and not just a reflection from somewhere else.

 

[boomx5]

I'm not saying that you are such a person - or even that most DIR divers are. What I'm saying is that SOME people fit that description completely - and are often the loudest about it as well. It's a pity that their attitude probably reflects more on all DIR divers than anything an outsider could say.

I do agree with you here Kim. In fact Bob Sherwood (one of the GUE instructors) just posted something on another board this morning reflecting your thoughts.

I've seen many divers from different certifying agencies dive. Sometimes they are downright dangerous. Does that reflect on me? I don't think so. I dive as I have been taught - as safely as possible. I was originally taught by PADI - does that automatically make me a bad diver?

I know some PADI trained divers who are pretty good divers and I would be happy to dive with them just about anytime. In fact, I have sent friends and family members to them to get certified. On the other hand (just like you) I know some divers who I wouldn't dive with if they payed me to do so because they are to dangerous.

 

[OE2X]

Zealotry can be found on both sides of the DIR fence. Anti and pro sides can come across as being far to ardent in their views. In this forum we see some of both and neither are easy to swallow.

I have to agree with Bob about wanting to let the world know about a new discovery that works for them. This is not necessarily bad motivation. For some though - including myself - after years of diving we come across something like DIR, see our weaknesses and become "converted" only to find our ego trashed. Again using myself as an example: I felt pretty stupid after 29 years of diving that I finally came across a method of diving that makes total sense for me. In an effort to overcome my stupidity I have often wanted to shout out to everyone that this should be their path as well. It is ego based and a form of overcompensation. A part of me would like not to see others make the same mistakes that I chose to. I have elected to try not to go down this road and instead focus my energies on being a better diver and dive buddy. With DIR or for that matter any other path in life it is an individual journey.

With that said, when my kids are old enough to learn how to dive, I will make sure that they have good DIR fundementals taught to them. If there is a better program than DIR out there when they are learning then they will be made to embrace that. Since I am their father, I can get away with doing this. To those who don't choose to try to or go down the DIR path - I won't judge you and will be happy to dive with you.

 

[Albion]

Can you explain how nearly everyone who takes this class sings of it's virtues? Is this a fluke, or can you come up with a reasonable explanation of why even the most vocal anti-DIR students who take the class feel this way?

Secondly, the SMB video, while not perfect, is certainly not "practically launching it under himself". You had to really stretch for that one, didn't you?

This is the link im reffering too, not sure if its the same as the other one as i cant watch that

http://www.fifthd.com/divestore/classes/video/sbag.htm

The bag is under him when he inflates, if he had a mishap with the fill connector he is about to launch himslef too. Im not saying it sucks but it's hardly a 'Nice' demonstration is it. It seems to infer to me that having the bag underneath you is the way to do it.

Maybe people are coming out of DIR- f as better divers but doe sit make people hwo havent taken it worse divers, that's whats often intimated, see my next post

 

[AADiveRex]

Zealotry can be found on both sides of the DIR fence. Anti and pro sides can come across as being far to ardent in their views. In this forum we see some of both and neither are easy to swallow.

What makes it even worse is that these are the ones on both sides who are most vocal, and often are not the best representatives of their "sides".

What surprised me the most is that earlier in this thread was a challenge to hold my non-DIR concepts and methods up to the scritiny of the community, which I did. I expected to get blasted for my Contra-DIR concepts, but I got not one bite. Which proves that either those who have been most vocal here had no way to punch holes in my methods, or that they are reasonable enough to realize that some things just don't work the same way for everyone. Having heard a lot from many DIR folks here, I choose to believe the latter.

As I have stated in the past, I am not a DIR beleiver, in that I can't accept the system as a whole, for a bunch of reasons. At the heart of it is my deep seated belief that to do the type of technical diving that I do requires that you contantly remain open to new ideas. A technical diver needs to be able to constantly evaluate each and every situation and adapt to it in the best way possible. I believe the concept that I can always make it better. On every dive I do, part of my deco ritual is to review the dive and isolate anything that didn't work perfectly, to think through the problem, and to devise options. This is how I am constantly evolving and making myself a better diver. If I were convinced that my way was perfect, as many DIR adherants seem to feel, I would never grow, never adapt, and never get any better.

That said, DIR has many things to offer. I remain open to its ideas and methods, and I will continue to take from it the concepts that work for me, as I remain open to any new idea that will make my diving better or safer.

Dive Safe
Adam

 

[Albion]

Because the majority of people who post with reasons of why they chose not to go DIR
1) have never taken the class
2) have misconceptions about what it means
3) are offended with the name. (Would a rose by any other name smell as sweet? )
4) are spouting mindless drivel they have HEARD about DIR....see #1 and 2
There is a NO DIR forum. If you want to use it, go ahead. So far, no one has posted there.

Would love to use it but you cannot post on it, which is one of the reasons why this “Why aren’t you DIR” thread is running. Non DIR are not allowed to make negative comments in DIR section so why is everyone making pro DIR comments here, you have your own forum go and play there.

Funny, GI3 wasn't mentioned once during my DIRF class. Nor was he quoted. If you don't want to read his drivel, don't read Quest.

He is a senior figure within GUE, saying don’t read his posts is like saying, if you don’t agree with US foreign policy don’t listen to George Bush

Hmmm....we seem to all know the reasons behind things. Do you have examples to support this? If there is something *you* don't understand, perhaps you should ask a DIR instructor or take a class.

I’m sure some of you do, but have seen many examples, where people did not answer my question with anything other than the party line.

Hey, that's fine. If you don't like it because you have analysed the system and think you can do it better, go ahead. This is the only reason

Thank you, I have taken parts of the system which were in turn taken from the hogarthian system, I am happy with what I’m using. I dont know whether they are better or not but they suit my logic, and the diving i do.

Thanks for proving yourself wrong. It saves me the time.

I haven’t proved myself wrong at all you missed the point

Perhaps you should take your own advice and take a class if you want to argue against a system you don't understand, as you said in number 3 above.

I do understand a fair part of it, and some parts I don’t understand I have asked about and had explained to me and chose to avoid. I gave a list of reasons WHY I DO NOT WANT TO BE DIR and those are my reasons, not all are rational I agree but they are my reasons and I am comfortable with my diving skills. This thread is why aren’t you DIR, so I don’t expect to be hassled into being told to take the course so I can argue against it.

If you are talking about the skills videos, you are nuts and I'd like to see you shoot a bag while hovering motionless and horizontal any better than that. The bag is shot at arms length. I'm not sure how that is underneath him.

No it isn’t when he fills it, see my post above, the bag is underneath. I was taught to part fill bag to lift it away from the diver then fill it once it is above me. And without wishing to sound bigheaded I can do better than demonstrated here.

I have just taken a TDI deco course, and I don’t see that the skill requirement of that course was any less skillful than what I’m reading here of the DIR-F course. Maskless airsharing, gear removal, valve drills, and ascent (not all at once) whilst horizontal and maintaining buoyancy. Please tell me what I’m missing, no, really do, it would be a good comparison. In most cases the skill was practiced with mask on and then removed by instructor when you weren’t expecting it.

GUE / DIR-F may have set a standard for their instructors but it does not mean that there are not TDI, IANTD or even PADI instructors out there that hold the same levels

 

[fishnchips]

This is the video Albion is talking about...talk about grasping for straws.
http://www.divetekadventures.com/Videos/VideoShotBag.htm

Forget DIR or NON DIR for a moment. Please place safety first. I hope that this video is a demonstration of what not to do. And whoever see this video, please for your own safety, please don't do what this video is showing.

I could not think of a reason why anyone would want to post such a dangerous maneuver on the web. Try to kill other scuba divers? :dropmouth Anyone with common sense would NEVER inflate the lift bag underneath them. :nonono:

Again, for your own safety, please do not do as the video demonstrated.

 

[TX101]

if a hog-f course were offered in the area, i'd consider taking it, i understand the raw ideas behind it, see the reasoning behind much of it

There's a guy in the UK who teaches what he calls a twinset fundamentals course (twin-f). It's basically DIR-F without the kool-aid & fitness test. I believe Frank is a TDI Instructor trainer, IANTD adv. trimix & full cave Instructor as well as a Drager, Submatix, KISS & Inspiration Instructor. He took DIR-F when JJ was in the UK and JJ asked if he wanted to be a GUE instructor. He declined.

more info here http://www.e-aquanauts.co.uk/

 

[Paul Evans]

Well...Neptune has promised 40 virgins in Jet Fins when we make it too Atlantis if we are all good little missionaries. So we go door to door, website to website looking for victims whom we may convert to the black DIR cult so we may all be drones that are one with the sea!

ROLFLOL


Come on people, theres a lot to be learned by all, it does'nt matter if it comes from DIR or anywhere else

 

[boomx5]

Forget DIR or NON DIR for a moment. Please place safety first. I hope that this video is a demonstration of what not to do. And whoever see this video, please for your own safety, please don't do what this video is showing.

I could not think of a reason why anyone would want to post such a dangerous maneuver on the web. Try to kill other scuba divers? :dropmouth Anyone with common sense would NEVER inflate the lift bag underneath them. :nonono:

Again, for your own safety, please do not do as the video demonstrated.

The bag flipped through his arms...he was not inflating the bag under himself. If you look at how he is holding the bag, it is at arms length, and the bag is shorter than his arm, so unless he pulls the bag back toward himself IT WILL NOT INFLATE UNDER HIM! Anyone with common sense could see this. I look forward to seeing the video of you shooting a bag so we can all learn the right way to do things.