Tipping Divemasters

[Patoux01]

Now you want to have even more people to tip?
Sounds like some people have a very difficult time prying a few euros from their change purses already, now you want to make it even harder on those poor souls?

No, I just want it to be fair. No reason that you can withhold the DM's pay but not the captain's or manager's is there?

 

[Lorenzoid]

Yes, it does. At least for those of us who live in a non-tipping culture where people are paid a wage they can live off. Who do you tip, when, how much? You 'murricans grow up in a tipping culture, you learn by immersion from high school age. You take those things for granted to a degree that you don't even think about mentioning it in your online reviews. It's not trivial to research those things, even today, since it's not communicated very well.

EDIT: And if you do a bona fide attempt at researching the topic like the OP did here, you're sniped repeatedly and the thread has about a 50/50 chance of turning into a trainwreck.

I think most divers around the world today are aware that America has this "tipping culture," and any dive destination that gets a lot of American visitors will similarly have developed a tipping culture to at least some extent. So, depending on the destination, you should have a pretty good idea before booking a trip whether a tip is likely to be expected. Then, it's not difficult to make an inquiry as to what size tip might be expected. When I booked a liveaboard in Indonesia, the tipping expectations were plainly available on the website. (I believe it was 10% of the cost of the trip.) Other ways to inquire include asking the dive operator or other divers you encounter. I suspect that most dive operators will give an honest answer as to the size of the tip that most customers leave for their crew. If you think their estimate is out of line, you are free to leave what you think is correct. As evidenced by this thread and previous threads, what is "correct" in the US for divemasters is a bit less well established than what is correct in a restaurant or taxi. I wouldn't get too worked up over it.

 

[jh_MacLeod]

I think most divers around the world today are aware that America has this "tipping culture," and any dive destination that gets a lot of American visitors will similarly have developed a tipping culture to at least some extent. So, depending on the destination, you should have a pretty good idea before booking a trip whether a tip is likely to be expected. Then, it's not difficult to make an inquiry as to what size tip might be expected. When I booked a liveaboard in Indonesia, the tipping expectations were plainly available on the website. (I believe it was 10% of the cost of the trip.) Other ways to inquire include asking the dive operator or other divers you encounter. I suspect that most dive operators will give an honest answer as to the size of the tip that most customers leave for their crew. If you think their estimate is out of line, you are free to leave what you think is correct. As evidenced by this thread and previous threads, what is "correct" in the US for divemasters is a bit less well established than what is correct in a restaurant or taxi. I wouldn't get too worked up over it.

You know, as an American expat who has been living and working in Europe and Asia for the last 20 years, what I get worked up over is the western attitude that the American way of doing things should be unquestionably adopted by the rest of the world as a better way. So my comment to American dive masters like Sheeper is that I hope you stay is Florida and never broaden your horizons. British, Australian, European, and even a few American professional divers manage to support themselves in Asia (at least short-term) in a diving culture without extra gratuities, and I for one hope that does not change in my lifetime. The dive operators I repeatedly dive with in Malaysia (quite often owned and operated by westerners), employ western dive masters, pay them an adequate wage, take them on a free special dive trip at the end of each season, and still manage to charge a reasonable fee for each boat dive. And these operators also make enough profit to maintain their equipment, pay their insurance and operational overhead expenses, and put some money in the bank. Sure, if some dumb American forces them to take some extra money, they will smile and say thanks, but it may not be "appreciated" in the same manner as you expect . In my experience, once people mange to break free of the tipping "caste" system, it actually opens up a whole range of other possibilities. Dive professionals and their customers can actually start to become friends, instead of being locked into a commercial relationship. This is fortunately still possible in Malaysia and elsewhere in Asia, though I will admit that it is a bit more difficult in Thailand and Indonesia because of the nature of their foreign-dominated tourism industries. When I go diving there, I tend to seek out and patronize local operators who perhaps don't offer the same level of service as the foreign-owned and operated businesses, but are adequate if you're careful and don't need someone to hold your hand. As others have said in this thread, it really isn't so much about the cost of the dive as it is the quality of the personal service. In my opinion, diving with friends is always better that diving with servants, and think my dive master friends feel the same way.

 

[mmmbelows]

No, I just want it to be fair. No reason that you can withhold the DM's pay but not the captain's or manager's is there?

If they get tips you can if not you can't. I'm not in the business of tilting windmills unlike it seems others are because they are so hateful of spreading a little thankfulness around to those who have the most direct ability to make their dives safe and comfortable for them. This is how things are and I'm not going to change them and neither is anybody else here with the exception of a dive shop owner who could change things by creating a no tipping policy, or some dive masters who so strongly side with the non-tippers here that they could show they do by refusing all tips.

---------- Post added January 7th, 2016 at 06:39 PM ----------

You know, as an American expat who has been living and working in Europe and Asia for the last 20 years, what I get worked up over is the western attitude that the American way of doing things should be unquestionably adopted by the rest of the world as a better way. So my comment to American dive masters like Sheeper is that I hope you stay is Florida and never broaden your horizons. British, Australian, European, and even a few American professional divers manage to support themselves in Asia (at least short-term) in a diving culture without extra gratuities, and I for one hope that does not change in my lifetime. The dive operators I repeatedly dive with in Malaysia (quite often owned and operated by westerners), employ western dive masters, pay them an adequate wage, take them on a free special dive trip at the end of each season, and still manage to charge a reasonable fee for each boat dive. And these operators also make enough profit to maintain their equipment, pay their insurance and operational overhead expenses, and put some money in the bank. Sure, if some dumb American forces them to take some extra money, they will smile and say thanks, but it may not be "appreciated" in the same manner as you expect . In my experience, once people mange to break free of the tipping "caste" system, it actually opens up a whole range of other possibilities. Dive professionals and their customers can actually start to become friends, instead of being locked into a commercial relationship. This is fortunately still possible in Malaysia and elsewhere in Asia, though I will admit that it is a bit more difficult in Thailand and Indonesia because of the nature of their foreign-dominated tourism industries. When I go diving there, I tend to seek out and patronize local operators who perhaps don't offer the same level of service as the foreign-owned and operated businesses, but are adequate if you're careful and don't need someone to hold your hand. As others have said in this thread, it really isn't so much about the cost of the dive as it is the quality of the personal service. In my opinion, diving with friends is always better that diving with servants, and think my dive master friends feel the same way.

That's a very interesting way to rationalize things. I was under the impression that compensation was the factor that changes a dive between friends to a dive between clients. You seem to differentiate it. You seem to think that as long as there is an intermediary between your wallet and the dive master by you only paying the shop the fee instead of the dive master that that makes you and dive master friends because you didn't compensate him directly. I kind of doubt the dive masters look at this like you do, I'm guessing, I may be wrong, but I kind of suspect you wouldn't be getting any of their 'friendship' if you suddenly stopped paying the dive shop they work for.

 

[Lorenzoid]

jh_MacLeod, I have been struggling with giving your post a Like or a Thank. As someone who has traveled extensively (though never lived abroad) I know exactly what you're getting at, and I think it's spot on. But the tone of your post smacks of the sort of American-bashing I have heard from some American expats.

There surely are cultural nuances around the world that not all of us are aware of. I think of the baksheesh culture I experienced in Egypt. It can seem like a bribe. It can seem like a tip. But it was explained to me that baksheesh is neither. As it was explained to me, it's the "lubricant that keeps the machine running," and everyone uses it. I am not familiar with the culture you mention in which there exists a grey zone between commercial relationship and friends, but I am aware that in other places in the world there may be cultural nuances to what we Americans might broadly think of as "tipping" that are beyond our comprehension.

 

[Storker]

I think most divers around the world today are aware that America has this "tipping culture," and any dive destination that gets a lot of American visitors will similarly have developed a tipping culture to at least some extent.

Well, duh. Of course. But you obviously didn't read my post very well. Try again, especially this part:

Who do you tip, when, how much? You 'murricans grow up in a tipping culture, you learn by immersion from high school age. You take those things for granted to a degree that you don't even think about mentioning it in your online reviews.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I'm not sure I understand the problem, Storker. All I was trying to say was that if a visitor to the US already knows we have a tipping culture, then all that remains is for the visitor to ask someone what the protocol is in the particular circumstance, like on a dive boat. As I suggested, ask the dive operator, or ask a fellow diver, and you will likely get an honest answer. It doesn't seem that difficult to me.

 

[george_austin]

20 USD a day plus a bottle of the local stuff and the end of the trip -

BUT - if the DM is young, female and gorgeous, funny, smart, single and likes to have a cocktail after hours . . . . much, much more . . .

 

[mmmbelows]

It doesn't seem that difficult to me.

And obviously it's not really that difficult. You just have to read between the lines.

When someone protests too much and their reasons defy logic eventually you have to look past their statements to their actions for the truth. How many replies on this thread are people who say they tip and at the same time reply with a statement that protests tipping? Now couple that with the reality you can verify personally - on all the dives you've been on what percentage have you seen tipping, combine that with all the reply's you've read on this thread and threads over the years from people in the industry who verify that they receive very few tips from divers. Put that all together and the truth is very simple, the confused - they don't tip, just smoke screens. Those who say just raise the price of the dives and include the tips, they will be the first ones to price shop the operation and go jump ship to the one who doesn't raise their prices, they will dive with the cheaper outfit and continue not to tip, just another smoke screen. Those that protest tipping waiters yet say they leave 20% tips, please I'm sure their waiters have never seen a 20% tip from these people in their lives. Tipping breaks down to two camps, those that do and those that don't. Those that don't have a whole litany of excuses of why they don't or what is keeping them from it, confusion about tipping is just one of them. Obviously there is no lack of information for anyone who really wants it. In this thread alone there are a dozen answers that provide tipping guidance, yet even posting in the same thread with this guidance the fall back is confusion is keeping me from tipping? Really?

 

[Storker]

I'm not sure I understand the problem, Storker. All I was trying to say was that if a visitor to the US already knows we have a tipping culture, then all that remains is for the visitor to ask someone what the protocol is in the particular circumstance, like on a dive boat.

Problem is, "that particular circumstance" includes every frikkin' single interaction with service personnel. Which happens several times per day, in a bunch of different "particular circumstances". It's a frikkin' minefield where someone who hasn't learned by immersion since before they started making their own money is bound to get blown up multiple times.

A personal anecdote:

The first time I was in the US, I probably stiffed a lot of people without being aware that I did so. Over here, people are generally paid a living wage and they don't depend on tips to put food on the table. So naturally, you're not expected to tip much. You tip the waiter in a restaurant (up to 10% if service is good, less the larger the bill is). In e.g. France, it was custom to tip some 15%, unless the bill stated "service compris", which meant that you just rounded up. For a beer in a bar or a pub, you might - or might not - just round up. Taxi, likewise. Anything else, no tip. At all. Later, I've learned (or tihng I've learned) that you guys tip - at least - some 15% at restaurants (OK, when in Rome...), 1$ per beer in a bar (again, when in Rome...), the bell boy in the hotel, the lady cleaning your hotel room (huh???), the valet parking guy (OK...), your hairdressers (wha...???!!), your DMs (???), and gawd only knows who else.

Heck, the next time I'm traveling to the US I'm going to need a tipping checklist longer than my luggage list and my pre-dive checklist combined.