Tipping

[Lorenzoid]

for the europeans: just think of it as socialist wealth transfer from you to a poor dive professional, except you skip the government and taxes part

That's amusing, but it only supports the arguments that tipping is awkward. Nobody likes paying taxes, but your tax bill is predictable. You know you will pay a certain amount at a certain time. You can pay it electronically--no need for filthy bills. In contrast, except maybe for restaurants in the US, the rules of tipping are too loosely defined for my comfort. "Tip whatever you feel like" (but it better be enough). "Tip whenever you like" (but before the dive might get you more attention, or after the dive you could slip a bill discreetly into the dive guide's hand, or put it in an envelope just before you leave for home, or ...). I'd rather pay that transfer of wealth in the form of taxes to the government.

 

[Mrs. B]

And I am the opposite political persuasion and even I agree with you

So, that is how you know it is doomed if the two extremes agree

 

[modustollens]

There are many things I dislike about tipping:

(1) It is expected. Some places even tack on a mandatory gratuity automatically. In this case, it defeats the purpose of the tip - extra given for good service; treated as obligatory it is simply a default cost to be added without some judgement, which defeats the purpose of a tip. If this is the case is not a tip at all and should not be called that at all; it is a fee for labour, not a tip, and this should be clearly labelled before anyone buys something. There is no reason to engage in the euphemistic language other than to obscure what is really going on.

(2) It is arbitrary: some services expect one, others don't. In high school I loaded cars at the grocery store outside in the cold, laboring hundred of pounds for hours: no tips. But those inside bringing a cup of coffee expect something. Indeed, one can see a 'tip' section in a buffet where the staff don't do any traditional restaurant service that warranted a tip. All this talk about what % is arbitrary too. 20 percent, 10 %. So, If I buy a cheap meal with 3 courses to serve I should tip less than if I buy one plate that is more expensive? How is this supposed to make any sense? Business should state the entire cost upfront so people on tight budgets can make a predictable plan. Tipping seems to easy an excuse to not pay the workers a wage that reflects the cost of the service, to avoid paying things like vacation pay or workers comp or payroll taxes in countries where a business must pay these as a function of employee salary.

(3) No account for costumer wealth: I worked jobs when in university that received no tips and payed less than a restaurant server would make per week. Every dollar I spent was accounted for. I am surly not going to add another 20% on my bill in this case without very good reason. Many people might go on a dive vacation only after scrimping and saving for a year or even more; their budget may be tighter than the workers on the boat. Not everyone is part of the leisure class going on holidays with a trust fund back home (I suspect the history of tipping derives from a time back in the day when only the uber-rich had any time or money for travel). Just because someone is on a dive trip or in a restaurant does not mean they are loaded with cash to throw around.

(4) Dodgy politics: there are lots of articles in the newspaper in my country about dodgy schemes with tips: the employers taking a percentage, or pooling all tips to be distributed amongst the entire staff (hence my tip is not going to the person who gave the extra special service); indeed, some places require the wait staff to add money to the tip pool based upon the value on the receipt, even if the client did not leave a tip.

That said, if I am flush with cash I am not averse to adding in a gratuity if the service warrants it; some of the workers are, like I was, cash poor and getting a few extra dollars would have a high utility; but claiming a tip is obligatory or claiming that some amount is obligatory is ridiculous.

 

[Olariuas]

Yeah same - I am happy that people do have strong arguments when they do not agree much with tips.

Liveaboard in Egypt-RedSea suggest a minimum of 75$ tips for a starting 800+ $ 7D trip and you have to left inside an envelop at the end of the trip.

This is 10 $ per day / 3.60 $ per dives (for 21x dives) shared between the crew and services that start from quoting online speaking/emailing with their support and deal with custom requests - begin with the airport/hostel transfert (are provided as a courtesy and are free of charge -- quote from Emperordivers FAQ) - with a great room who are clean and cool - with Nitrox free - with extra tasty meals - extra coffe at morning and I forgot maybe some things who might be important for a wonderfull and succesfull vacation without to think and worried about tipping. oh and you have 1 or 2 days no-fly -- they transfert you back to hostel / airport again. They are able to speak a bit more languages. Divers might be able to socialize more and some friendship can start cause its a 7D trip blahblah.


Same about language - Will you speak german if a german group come in Mexico ? Or should we search for a german language dive school and not have the opportunity to choose another dive center because of language barrier ?


Honestly I am sad that your dm / instructor salary are quite low and tips are required to help them because business / dive center' owner do not even decently pay them more.
And this is more sad specially in a tourist zone you have a room in hostel that cost more and dive centers must provide / are obliged to offer quite low but similar rate to survive but ... its not only tourists/customers entire fault. What if you have a new -not yet experienced but not bad at all dive center yeah you always have to start from somewhere and a new well organized dive center are capable of ...- who offer a daily rate 10% cheaper with similar services if not more. Or a private service/boat/dm with 15% extra cost but only with few divers or only for a group buddy.

In some country a 20 $ tips shared between crew per day might be nothing specially when you can work at a 9 $ stable hourly rate up to 10 hours MAX a day specially when you are must stay legal (thanks local laws) limited to work to 35 H a week - with minimum 1 up 2 days of rest - and a max 48H per week or 44H average over a 3 months period. But you need to invest a 8000+ course fees for that and have a job after that and stay in the market after that - cause if PADI pro aren't able to work and get paid without this expensive course don't forget that our DM / instructor are not even paid at all and no tips 0 or it's at total discretion of owner and diver of course... At least they offer the best service from my point of view - even if it look like most are more capable and do not need someone to care of gear cleanup or tanks lift and dive planification - they do not end the day with a bad impression because they worked that hard and only got peanuts.

Knowning those infos - even if you have low salary rate
(How much get a local guide, an instructor and the owner(s) ?)

Do you think that a low salary (even at 3$ hourly) + few shared tips make you worth more than someone that might litteraly earn nothing at the end ? and of course all services are similar and based on our agency standard + local laws who from my point of view is something funny in my country but let's not enter into that lol.

 

[runsongas]

There are many things I dislike about tipping:

(1) It is expected. Some places even tack on a mandatory gratuity automatically. In this case, it defeats the purpose of the tip - extra given for good service; treated as obligatory it is simply a default cost to be added without some judgement, which defeats the purpose of a tip. If this is the case is not a tip at all and should not be called that at all; it is a fee for labour, not a tip, and this should be clearly labelled before anyone buys something. There is no reason to engage in the euphemistic language other than to obscure what is really going on.

(2) It is arbitrary: some services expect one, others don't. In high school I loaded cars at the grocery store outside in the cold, laboring hundred of pounds for hours: no tips. But those inside bringing a cup of coffee expect something. Indeed, one can see a 'tip' section in a buffet where the staff don't do any traditional restaurant service that warranted a tip. All this talk about what % is arbitrary too. 20 percent, 10 %. So, If I buy a cheap meal with 3 courses to serve I should tip less than if I buy one plate that is more expensive? How is this supposed to make any sense? Business should state the entire cost upfront so people on tight budgets can make a predictable plan. Tipping seems to easy an excuse to not pay the workers a wage that reflects the cost of the service, to avoid paying things like vacation pay or workers comp or payroll taxes in countries where a business must pay these as a function of employee salary.

(3) No account for costumer wealth: I worked jobs when in university that received no tips and payed less than a restaurant server would make per week. Every dollar I spent was accounted for. I am surly not going to add another 20% on my bill in this case without very good reason. Many people might go on a dive vacation only after scrimping and saving for a year or even more; their budget may be tighter than the workers on the boat. Not everyone is part of the leisure class going on holidays with a trust fund back home (I suspect the history of tipping derives from a time back in the day when only the uber-rich had any time or money for travel). Just because someone is on a dive trip or in a restaurant does not mean they are loaded with cash to throw around.

(4) Dodgy politics: there are lots of articles in the newspaper in my country about dodgy schemes with tips: the employers taking a percentage, or pooling all tips to be distributed amongst the entire staff (hence my tip is not going to the person who gave the extra special service); indeed, some places require the wait staff to add money to the tip pool based upon the value on the receipt, even if the client did not leave a tip.

That said, if I am flush with cash I am not averse to adding in a gratuity if the service warrants it; some of the workers are, like I was, cash poor and getting a few extra dollars would have a high utility; but claiming a tip is obligatory or claiming that some amount is obligatory is ridiculous.

1) in which case it is closer to a service fee. pretty sure that exists in europe where you pay more if you sit at a table vs take out.

2) somewhat yes, but i would argue that the bag boy does get tipped at some places. in fact it was the sole reason working at the upscale grocer in my town as a bag boy was a desirable job when i was in high school.

3) tips should be factored in beforehand imo. you don't show up for a sports game and not plan to pay for parking. if it is a problem, you can always pick a location that is self service shore diving.

4) pooling tips is actually more fair in some respects, because the bus boys and line cooks work hard to make your meal enjoyable too. would you consider it fair on a liveaboard for only the DMs to receive tips but not for the ships cook, deck hands, and skiff drivers?

sounds like a great idea, but the reality is that low advertised prices work better than higher inclusive fares. look at how well budget airlines are doing with cheap advertised prices and then charging for everything including picking a window seat.

 

[runsongas]

Yeah same - I am happy that people do have strong arguments when they do not agree much with tips.

Liveaboard in Egypt-RedSea suggest a minimum of 75$ tips for a starting 800+ $ 7D trip and you have to left inside an envelop at the end of the trip.

This is 10 $ per day / 3.60 $ per dives (for 21x dives) shared between the crew and services that start from quoting online speaking/emailing with their support and deal with custom requests - begin with the airport/hostel transfert (are provided as a courtesy and are free of charge -- quote from Emperordivers FAQ) - with a great room who are clean and cool - with Nitrox free - with extra tasty meals - extra coffe at morning and I forgot maybe some things who might be important for a wonderfull and succesfull vacation without to think and worried about tipping. oh and you have 1 or 2 days no-fly -- they transfert you back to hostel / airport again. They are able to speak a bit more languages. Divers might be able to socialize more and some friendship can start cause its a 7D trip blahblah.


Same about language - Will you speak german if a german group come in Mexico ? Or should we search for a german language dive school and not have the opportunity to choose another dive center because of language barrier ?


Honestly I am sad that your dm / instructor salary are quite low and tips are required to help them because business / dive center' owner do not even decently pay them more.
And this is more sad specially in a tourist zone you have a room in hostel that cost more and dive centers must provide / are obliged to offer quite low but similar rate to survive but ... its not only tourists/customers entire fault. What if you have a new -not yet experienced but not bad at all dive center yeah you always have to start from somewhere and a new well organized dive center are capable of ...- who offer a daily rate 10% cheaper with similar services if not more. Or a private service/boat/dm with 15% extra cost but only with few divers or only for a group buddy.

In some country a 20 $ tips shared between crew per day might be nothing specially when you can work at a 9 $ stable hourly rate up to 10 hours MAX a day specially when you are must stay legal (thanks local laws) limited to work to 35 H a week - with minimum 1 up 2 days of rest - and a max 48H per week or 44H average over a 3 months period. But you need to invest a 8000+ course fees for that and have a job after that and stay in the market after that - cause if PADI pro aren't able to work and get paid without this expensive course don't forget that our DM / instructor are not even paid at all and no tips 0 or it's at total discretion of owner and diver of course... At least they offer the best service from my point of view - even if it look like most are more capable and do not need someone to care of gear cleanup or tanks lift and dive planification - they do not end the day with a bad impression because they worked that hard and only got peanuts.

Knowning those infos - even if you have low salary rate
(How much get a local guide, an instructor and the owner(s) ?)

Do you think that a low salary (even at 3$ hourly) + few shared tips make you worth more than someone that might litteraly earn nothing at the end ? and of course all services are similar and based on our agency standard + local laws who from my point of view is something funny in my country but let's not enter into that lol.

i honestly think the tip guidance is too low on the egypt liveaboards. the crews there really do a swell job and should be getting more imo. i can't imagine the base crew pay is that high considering how low the prices are. the european club model is different because people are volunteering their time to the club. it is not a business. nobody is relying on being a dm or instructor as a full time job to pay the rent whereas you do see that elsewhere. and raising prices to pay better wages only works in certain places where you have tourist divers that are less price sensitive. raising prices in areas with lots of local divers just means you get more people shore diving or forming a club to charter their own boats.

 

[Olariuas]

You have some generous tourists and some who do not care much as soon as they enjoy their vacations/

Or you build up a business around shore diving / rental only services
- rent boats
- rent gears
- rent rescue/safety devices
- rent cameras
- rent dpv
- rent truck
- offer fast servicing
- offer to pay your gas per m3 or huge volume
- offer cheaper air / ean cost
- offer a local for any instructors who want to bring students and need a classroom
- offer some partnship between dive centers to get a stable 10x dive package at 300 €
- offer something like Scuba Tinder to found buddy ( i'm joking)
etc etc

Build up website for better quoting management
1 - 2 people running the business, no need dm no need instructor etc etc

Less price sensitive you are right - I personnaly don't feel the need to pay 100$ 1x recreational dive where there are more than dozen other dive shop around
lower price I agree and sorry that the business are there. In Bonaire where you can unlimited shore diving: 6 Days for 175 $ daily rate: 40$ for unlimited air or nitrox fills I will need to ask. So right if some people do prefer shore diving or a budget restricted why not ... What can you do against business who offer such prices without tips...

 

[modustollens]

sounds like a great idea, but the reality is that low advertised prices work better than higher inclusive fares. look at how well budget airlines are doing with cheap advertised prices and then charging for everything including picking a window seat.

Sure - but, these airlines don't call those extra items 'giving a tip', meaning, an optional addition one can pay for good service; they are (often) clear (in the fine print at least) that these items are not included in the base price; and, if one does not choose to buy these items then there is no real social stigma attached, i.e., being called cheap. This is not so in other areas.

If a tip is not mandatory - and that is the only thing that can count as a tip - then there is nothing wrong with not paying it; but if it is either expected or mandatory, then it is not a tip and it should be itemized as a formal part of the cost.

It seems like those who want tips want to have it both ways: not mandatory, but, expected, by default - that is, there is some obligation required. But it can't be optional and required at the same time, even if there are different senses to the idea of 'required' - such as a legal or moral or customary or cultural requirement.

I have even seen places where there is a gratuity added to the bill and people still expect a tip.

I myself tend to adjust my attitude based on my current finances - if am a flush, sure, I'll add a bit; but, if I'm tight, then I may not. I normally add some to the boat box when on holiday in Thailand, for example. But I don't tip by default or follow any 'standard' recommendations - the former defeats the purpose and the latter is too arbitrary.

 

[npole]

That's too bad. The diving in Coz is very easy and very nice. Keep in mind it's not the dive industry in Coz saying if you don't tip don't come, only a few folks on SB. I truly believe the dive/tourist industry would prefer you to come dive, eat, and have fun whether you tip or not. All IMHO. Dive and let dive...

Correct, in Cozumel I was one of the few on he boat that have tipped a couple of times (when it made sense to tip...), all the other folks from any part of the world (including USA, Japan, Europe..) didn't tipped a dime and the dm and boat crew didn't appeared to expect anything (in fact the times I tipped they were someway "surprised").
This was even more evident those couple of times we went with the op at Iberostar (much more "luxury" and vacationer oriented..), there I didn't seen a single tip flying and the crew were so many that you would struggle to decide who to tip at all.. and again they didn't expect any.
So, in all honesty, I'm surprised of reading about this tipping culture going on in Mexico.. it's much more present in the USA.